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  1. #101
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    YourLocalJesus has a point. Sexual harassment in any work place is illegal. Why should it be any different in the military I wonder...

    I've never been in the military so I can't speak for what it must be like to be a part of something like that... but I don't understand why the rules for humanity, rules against prejudice and for hatred, should be tossed aside.

    I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the irony of the whole thing.

    Our military fights for things like Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, etc etc etc... yet we can't tolerate these freedoms within the military itself...

    The whole thing is mind boggling and a bit surreal.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  2. #102
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    ...If gay guys go in the female locker rooms I guess it'd be fine, bout I doubt it'd gonna happen that way.
    I don't know if they'd be into that.

    Regardless of sexual preference, gay men don't view themselves usually as women; they have a male self-identity. They'd probably feel out of place there.

    (But hey, it was worth a shot. Or barrage. Or something.)

    Quote Originally Posted by YLJ
    What does "openly showing" ones sexuality mean, anyway? That the homosexual soldiers get to wear a rainbow ribbon under their rank patch or something?
    That's another point that is often lost when arguing the abstractions.

    What specifically would it mean to be out?
    Being able to have PDAs with lovers while other guys are out picking up girls?
    Wearing a pin?
    Talking casually about an SO without worrying about fear of punishment?

    I assume it would just mean that gay men could refer to SOs in whatever way that straight men refer to THEIR SOs, without fear of punishment. Basically, whatever rules govern normal "het" behavior would be in effect for gay behavior as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    You have entered the discussion with a bias. Strangely, you invalidated my opinion because you perceive me as being biased. By your very own terms, neither of us is balanced enough to make a correct evaluation.
    I had an opinion, as is natural, and through this discussion, I'm far more convinced than I was previously that it's sound.

    The reason I can so easily invalidate your opinion is because you're only considering the advancement of homosexual causes. That's your agenda. I don't have one. I analyze all sides and predict outcomes. I've said that I'm in favor of real gay rights in free society. I just don't think the environment is right in the military to go in half-cocked and require allowance of "open" homosexuality. It's dangerous and unproductive. The military is not a social club, it's a tool.


    Did you notice what you have admitted by stating "it would be proper to do so?" To reach that conclusion, you must first acknowledge a majority. If the military is as stringent as you claim, why would the officers feel obligated to respond in favor of gay rights?
    The most obvious answer is that surveys aren't a truly scientific instrument because they're often constructed poorly and there's much more involved in the responses than how people really feel. People want to feel good about themselves as "accepting," even when they are not, and answer accordingly. They lie, even to themselves. Put Joe Army in a situation where he is bunking with Billy-Jane Army, who won't stop talking about oral sex with his boyfriend, and if Joe Army's legally required to put up with it, he might do something not quite legal to solve the problem.

  4. #104
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Hey. A fighting machine can never be based on democracy or the freedom to do what the hell you want. The military itself, while fighting for the preservation of the ideals of society, is de facto a dictatorship. And it needs to be to work as efficiently as possible.

    Multiple cooks will just make a terrible soup. That's why chain of command and the importance of following rules and orders is so damn important. The same rules that applies to society can never work inside an army, unless you want an army that is hugely ineffective.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  5. #105
    Senior Member Misty_Mountain_Rose's Avatar
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    Hence the irony.

    I could never join the military, but I knew that at a young age. I'm too argumentative, too idealistic and too caught up in 'fairness'. I'd have been the worlds worst recruit.
    Embrace the possibilities.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I had an opinion, as is natural, and through this discussion, I'm far more convinced than I was previously that it's sound.

    The reason I can so easily invalidate your opinion is because you're only considering the advancement of homosexual causes. That's your agenda. I don't have one. I analyze all sides and predict outcomes. I've said that I'm in favor of real gay rights in free society. I just don't think the environment is right in the military to go in half-cocked and require allowance of "open" homosexuality. It's dangerous and unproductive. The military is not a social club, it's a tool.


    I completely agree. That is all that I sensed from the creation of this topic, and it is honestly sickening. I understand if people want to advance their own social agendas, but why cant you have some damn sense to go along with it?

  7. #107
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    My feeling is that there isn't much you can do about it -- re: showering.

    Do you really think a gay man would lust after you, and any and all other straight men, just because he's gay?

    I remember I was offered this room in this great house and the owner and gay male roommate had no problem with me being out. I told them "I'm a lesbian" pretty clearly on the phone before looking at the room and asked if that was an issue. It wasn't. I was supposd to cut a check and move in.

    Then it turns out that the girl on the same floor as me did have a problem with it and they retracted the offer to me. I never even met the girl. I got this sense of her (hyper Ne) from some of her belongings and a note she left for the other roommate -- that she was a young straight white college girly girl. I think she assumed I was some really big butch hairy woman that would lust after her. I was really pissed. In your wildest Skinemax dreams!

    My friends all admonished me and told me that I shouldn't have said anything about my sexual orientation. Then had really loud violent lesbian sex every night in my room until the girl moved out. Then move in the big hairy butch lesbian. LOL.

    My handsome and/or 'exotic' looking lesbian and bisexual female friends get straight women (drunk or not) hitting on them all the time for a night of experimentation. The straight women can get really grabby and forward.

    Okay tangents - but basically, it is really insulting what straight people (in my cases women) can actually think and how they behave towards queer women. Not like equals but really as predators or toys or strange purely sexual creatures, not people.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  8. #108
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I'd like to hear an actual specific argument that supports the theory that if we repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell, chaos will ensue in the military, or at the least, it will have a noticeable negative effect.

    In reality, if it's repealed, it won't make a big difference on military culture.

  9. #109
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'd like to hear an actual specific argument that supports the theory that if we repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell, chaos will ensue in the military, or at the least, it will have a noticeable negative effect.

    In reality, if it's repealed, it won't make a big difference on military culture.
    Nah. That is true... As Jack said, you can't change the opinion of "Joe Army".
    And it's not society's norms, policies and regulations that really matter in any kind of armed forces. It's their own, and no matter what the text book says, there are always unwritten laws and norms... They're hard to change. Good luck with that...

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  10. #110
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Wow 11 pages and counting!

    What I'll say about the military is that it is ostensibly a safe, non-sexual place. Like ALL other work places that are NOT in the sex industry. You're in it to win it whether it's selling cars or killing babies. It doesn't matter what your views on the military or war are here -- the issue of 'equality in the workplace' is pretty clear.

    Your comrades are not supposed to be sexual objects, they are fellow coworkers, fellow soldiers. You have a goal, a mission, and you don't let personal prejudice or wanton sexual lust get in the way of it. Same as in corporate America. Same as in retail. Same as in any unionized job.

    Women were not taken seriously as capable, intelligent people and were also seen as a threat -- so of course people used the lame excuse that "if women are there, I'll want to have sex with them and be distracted from work". Or "if a woman's here, she won't be able to concentrate on work b/c she's too busy with womanly concerns and try to marry me." Do you really think that's true?

    As far as you'd only want to die for a woman if you were in love with her so a gay person would only die for a same sex person if they were in love with them -- no. Like 01001, you're all soldiers. You're all equal. The military is a machine, it should be able to drill that into you.

    As for me, when I go to shower rooms and public baths with other women, I'm not going in there to cruise for sex or checking other women out sexually. We're just naked bodies doing our thing. Yeah, it's possible for me to do that even though I am attracted to and have romantic relationships with women.

    And that doesn't mean I welcome any and all contact from other women. I realized that it's possible one day a woman may be checking me out in the shower in a sexual way and I won't be thrilled, but as long as they don't act on it or make it obvious or disrespect me and I'm not even aware of it, that just kinda comes with the territory.

    Same thing when you're on the street. Sometimes people check out you sexually. Sometimes you're not even aware of it. Sometimes you'd be quite displeased to know about it. It comes with the territory. It's more a matter of how people do it and how (and how NOT) they act on it.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

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