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  1. #31
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not about punishment. It's about mitigating future risk.
    When you put it that way... you have a point.

    Would it matter to you if she was kept in a mental hospital or a prison? Either option would keep her away from society. I just don't believe the mentally ill deserve to be treated in the same way as other people who commit crimes.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    When you put it that way... you have a point.

    Would it matter to you if she was kept in a mental hospital or a prison? Either option would keep her away from society. I just don't believe the mentally ill deserve to be treated in the same way as other people who commit crimes.
    Why?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL, you think I'm upset about the baby being killed? Not at all. It's not about punishment. It's about mitigating future risk.
    Are you saying that what's done is done, let's forget it, move on and avoid a repeat? That thinking would still require acknowledging the original travesty. If it could be proven as an isolated fluke, would you suggest just letting it go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I can't stand this type of reasoning, absolving her of responsibility. If she wasn't responsible, who the hell was? She put a baby in a dryer! Seeking psychological help was an option BEFORE she did that, not after.
    You used the word "responsibility" in this previous post. How does that relate to your thinking that doesn't involve the idea of punishment? If your only issue is future prevention, then why would you raise the issue of her responsibility in the matter? Isn't that irrelevant to determine the likelihood of a repeat? In one way, if her mind is repeatedly altered beyond the point of personal responsibility, then the likelihood of a repeat is actually greater because she will not be able to factor in fear of future punishment or a sense of personal repercussions. A focus on prevention alone also suggests that the method of prevention is not important, whether that be increased medication, psychological help, or imprisonment. All three are approaches are equivalent (assuming they are equally effective) if the focus is prevention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why?
    If the underlying idea is rehabilitation where possible (which is actually ineffectively sought after even in the prison system), then providing psychological help where it can be effective makes sense. The drawback to treating everyone the same, throwing everyone in prison is that we get to pay for their many years of incarceration knowing that rehabilitation will never be an option. It is more efficient for society to attempt to use it's most effective problem solving tools in any given scenario. In a word, the answer to "why" is efficiency.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  4. #34
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Well, can't say it wasn't effective.
    Ultimately, yeah, but I'm sure the baby was screaming from within the dryer for any number of minutes before his death. If she really just wanted him to be quiet, she would have smothered him or left him outside (or even stabbed him to death).
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  5. #35
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    Wow, never thought of the dryer idea, i'll use that one the next time mine cries.
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  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Why?
    Because they aren't accountable in the same way.

    If your mind is clear and you choose to do something like this... then you're just a criminal and they should throw the book at you.

    If you're mentally ill, then you didn't have as much choice in your actions, and thus should bear less responsibility for the consequences.

    If you somehow lost your mind and did something that you would never do if you were sane, how would you want to be treated?

  7. #37
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Ahhh.

    We're a people of broken brains and mental health problems are on the rise. It's possible that they are the cause of nearly everything that's "going wrong." I see symptoms of mental and emotional illness rampant in our society. And it's all self-destructive, therefore societally poisonous.

    Our situation is dire. Pollution, overcrowding, an increasingly unheathy physical environment. And the human response has not been one of reason to the problems which are solvable.

    How many people with undiagnosed mental illness or chemical dependency suddenly say, "I think I'll go get help today?" How many people who seek, or are sent for, help actually implement the help they've received? We all are deluded by the perception that we are fine and that everyone else is the problem. Few are tending the store and the store is US.

    I suspect that searching for causology is nearly a lost cause. Certainly attempting to prevent it doesn't seem to be working. Jacking up our rehabilitative and, uh, punitive services hasn't seemed to stem the tide.

    Sometimes I wonder if we won't eventually as a society swing back to the more expedient method of just eliminating people who are perceived as the problem. I'm not sure where else we can go at this point.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #38
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    <snip>
    Sometimes I wonder if we won't eventually as a society swing back to the more expedient method of just eliminating people who are perceived as the problem. I'm not sure where else we can go at this point.
    I have to admit I didn't totally follow the post but isn't that exactly what she did?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Because they aren't accountable in the same way.
    I disagree, but this is more about philosophy. Their brain is still a decision engine, just like yours and mine. If someone were to conclusively prove to me that their brain damage could be completely fixed, I would be more inclined to agree with you. It seems that your stance would carry more weight if this were possible.

    If your mind is clear and you choose to do something like this... then you're just a criminal and they should throw the book at you.

    If you're mentally ill, then you didn't have as much choice in your actions, and thus should bear less responsibility for the consequences.
    Like I said before, I just don't see it the same way. I believe they're still just as responsible.

    If you somehow lost your mind and did something that you would never do if you were sane, how would you want to be treated?
    What I want would be irrelevant when it comes to the needs of society. Of course I would WANT to be free. But if I were a danger to society, it would make sense for them to treat me like other criminals.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What amazes is me is how the hell this woman thought she would get away with it. That's quite a price to pay to watch television undisturbed.
    I don't think she actually THOUGHT - she probably acted out of frustration...

    Still, this story is heinous.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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