User Tag List

First 715161718 Last

Results 161 to 170 of 179

  1. #161
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    If he didn't want to be a police officer anymore, why would an internal affairs investigation be relevant anymore? Wouldn't the point of that investigation to be whether or not to fire him? If he's prosecuted then he'll be compelled to talk.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #162
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    IsTP
    Posts
    1,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    If he didn't want to be a police officer anymore, why would an internal affairs investigation be relevant anymore? Wouldn't the point of that investigation to be whether or not to fire him? If he's prosecuted then he'll be compelled to talk.
    I thought the point of the investigation was to find out what happened? If he's as remorseful as you make him out to be why should he be compelled to talk?
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  3. #163
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    I thought the point of the investigation was to find out what happened? If he's as remorseful as you make him out to be why should he be compelled to talk?
    Kendo, I'm not "making him out to be" anything. I just don't think it's necessary to jump to conclusions because there is a lot of doubt in this case. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that even if it was an accident he might face some manslaughter charges, and yet still be remorseful. There are some things that seem fairly clear to me, one of which is that before the shot was fired the officers were using a disturbing amount of force on a relatively docile person. But the circumstances of the shot itself are not clear at all. I mean, the officer had a 1-week-old baby at home. People do stupid, stupid things under the effects of sleep deprivation.

    And speaking of the baby, if people were making death threats against my week-old newborn because of something I did, I'd probably rather hunker down and stay out of it as much as possible. I don't think he's blameless, and I definitely think police brutality is a problem. But this incident feels to me like people are crucifying this guy for all police brutality that has ever taken place anywhere, and I don't think that's called for.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #164
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    IsTP
    Posts
    1,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Kendo, I'm not "making him out to be" anything. I just don't think it's necessary to jump to conclusions because there is a lot of doubt in this case. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that even if it was an accident he might face some manslaughter charges, and yet still be remorseful. There are some things that seem fairly clear to me, one of which is that before the shot was fired the officers were using a disturbing amount of force on a relatively docile person. But the circumstances of the shot itself is not clear at all. I mean, the officer had a 1-week-old baby at home. People do stupid, stupid things under the effects of sleep deprivation.

    And speaking of the baby, if people were making death threats against my week-old newborn because of something I did, I'd probably rather hunker down and stay out of it as much as possible. I don't think he's blameless, and I definitely think police brutality is a problem. But this incident feels to me like people are crucifying this guy for all police brutality that has ever taken place anywhere, and I don't think that's called for.
    You introduced the maybe he's remorseful angle. In the context of this conversation you are "making him out" to be remorseful.

    Edit: He has given no statement as to why he resigned and turned down numerous opportunities to speak to investigators after the incident. In fact protocol was he should've given a statement the already.

    I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I'm talking to police officers and asking them their opinions, as one of the main arguments offered in this thread by others is "you don't know how hard it is to be a cop and what it's like to be in situations like that" so I'm talking to people who do. I'm literally walking up to every cop I see walking the beat. Most won't comment out of professional courtesy.

    I personally haven't tried to crucify anyone for anything, I made an offhanded comment about a statistical fact, and everyones panties got all bunched up.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  5. #165
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    You introduced the maybe he's remorseful angle. In the context of this conversation you are "making him out" to be remorseful.
    No, I'm saying he MAY BE remorseful, and I don't think I introduced that idea to the discussion (I think JF said he thought it looked like the cop "died inside" after firing the shot). He could probably help matters by expressing remorse if he has any, but I don't think that because he hasn't expressed any publicly and has quit the force instead of complying with internal affairs to keep his job, that he can't be devastated by what he did. It doesn't seem unlikely for someone to deal with devastation by basically going into hermit mode. It might be a little bit cowardly, but being cowardly isn't a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    I'm not jumping to any conclusions. I'm talking to police officers and asking them their opinions, as one of the main arguments offered in this thread by others is "you don't know how hard it is to be a cop and what it's like to be in situations like that" so I'm talking to people who do. I'm literally walking up to every cop I see walking the beat. Most won't comment out of professional courtesy.

    I personally haven't tried to crucify anyone for anything, I made an offhanded comment about a statistical fact, and everyones panties got all bunched up.
    I don't even disagree with your statistical fact, and I do think the amount of force the three cops used prior to the shooting was disturbing. But should this guy (or his family, who IMO are victims in this case as well) pay for all the police brutality that has ever happened? I get the impression he was a gumshoe--he's 27 years old and had only been a cop for 2 years. They had only been using tazers for a week before this happened, and incidentally that was the same week he had brought home a new baby. Maybe he wasn't entirely temperamentally suited to being a cop. Maybe he's just not very bright, or not very good at staying cool under pressure. Maybe BART shares the blame for hiring underqualified officers and failing to train them well enough. There is plenty of productive, reasonable questioning that could go on in this case instead of letting it get whipped up into more and more violence.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #166
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    2,967

    Default

    In light of the Rodney King case, I'm wondering if the legal system will sacrifice the officer in an attempt to forestall further rioting. Could that previous event bias the court?

    Mark Fuhrman may have single-handledly saved LA from self-destruction!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #167
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    IsTP
    Posts
    1,334

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    No, I'm saying he MAY BE remorseful, and I don't think I introduced that idea to the discussion (I think JF said he thought it looked like the cop "died inside" after firing the shot). He could probably help matters by expressing remorse if he has any, but I don't think that because he hasn't expressed any publicly and has quit the force instead of complying with internal affairs to keep his job, that he can't be devastated by what he did. It doesn't seem unlikely for someone to deal with devastation by basically going into hermit mode. It might be a little bit cowardly, but being cowardly isn't a crime.
    I was responding specifically to your maybe not JFs. As a outsider looking in all I can do is speculate. I personally wonder why wait until the day of the appointment to quit, especially if he already had opportunity to answer questions (and therefore quit) earlier.
    He has previously declined to talk to separate investigators from BART and the district attorney's office, who will decide whether he should be charged with a crime, officials said...

    BART had come under fire from John Burris, the attorney for Grant's family, for not having forced Mehserle to talk with internal affairs investigators since the shooting. Unlike in criminal investigations - in which a suspect has the constitutional right not to talk to police - officers involved in on-the-job shootings must talk to inspectors as part of administrative inquiries or risk being fired.

    I don't even disagree with your statistical fact, and I do think the amount of force the three cops used prior to the shooting was disturbing. But should this guy (or his family, who IMO are victims in this case as well) pay for all the police brutality that has ever happened? I get the impression he was a gumshoe--he's 27 years old and had only been a cop for 2 years. They had only been using tazers for a week before this happened, and incidentally that was the same week he had brought home a new baby. Maybe he wasn't entirely temperamentally suited to being a cop. Maybe he's just not very bright, or not very good at staying cool under pressure. Maybe BART shares the blame for hiring underqualified officers and failing to train them well enough. There is plenty of productive, reasonable questioning that could go on in this case instead of letting it get whipped up into more and more violence.
    Contrary to all the hand wringing and angst directed at me personally in this thread, I never suggested anything of the sort.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  8. #168
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Posts
    1,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    And speaking of the baby, if people were making death threats against my week-old newborn because of something I did, I'd probably rather hunker down and stay out of it as much as possible. I don't think he's blameless, and I definitely think police brutality is a problem. But this incident feels to me like people are crucifying this guy for all police brutality that has ever taken place anywhere, and I don't think that's called for.
    yeah, i can agree with this somewhat.

    but the guy did kill an unarmed man, shot him in the back, while lying face down.

    lets say AT BEST it was somewhat of an accident.

    at least in the future, if he goes to prison, there will be more prevention and training to "prevent" these sort of accidents from happening again. you simply cannot have a society where the guilty go unpunished. and it is a statistical fact that some races are more likely to be found guilty, than innocent, for the same crime, same income levels.

    lets say he quit cus he was remorseful, well, sure, in a society like ours, where there is no such thing as shame, its nice he did have some sort of shame. but recognizing that he did now does nothing to change the way society already is, ala madoff, blagovechic, shameless.

  9. #169
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    MBTI
    ISTx
    Posts
    10,552

    Default

    I don't have sources but I read someone saying he was advised by his worker's union to resign.

  10. #170
    null Jonny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    MBTI
    FREE
    Posts
    2,486

    Default

    I'm resurrecting this thread because the criminal trial of the police officer (Johannes Mehserle) accused of killing Oscar Grant is supposed to conclude within the next few days. Depending upon the verdict, rioting and violence is expected to erupt in Oakland; and as an EMT in neighboring Santa Clara County I am required to keep county officials up to date on my whereabouts so that I can be called into duty should medical assistance be needed.

    Johannes Mehserle

    The oldest of three children, Johannes Sebastian Mehserle (born circa 1982) was raised in the Bay Area from the age of 4.[3] He graduated in the class of 2000 from New Technology High School in Napa, California. He attended college in Napa, in Monterey, and at Sonoma State University, where he majored in business, and he developed an interest in police work through a friend who was a police officer. He went on to graduate from Napa Valley College Police Academy in 2006, where he placed in the top five of his class academically and placed well physically.[28][38] Mehserle's girlfriend gave birth to their first child on the day after the incident, January 2, 2009.[38][39]

    Mehserle joined the Bay Area Rapid Transit Police in March 2007.[38] Prior to the shooting, he had never been the subject of a sustained complaint from the agency's internal affairs department [40] nor had any criminal arrests of any kind. Since the shooting, a Bay Area man has complained to the media that Mehserle had beaten him on November 15, 2008; Mehserle's police report on the incident states that four officers grabbed the man after he yelled threats and assumed a fighting stance.[41] The accuser, who has served time for theft and burglary, was taken to the hospital for chest and facial injuries and was later booked into jail for resisting arrest. He has not filed a formal complaint against BART.[41]

    Mehserle submitted to drug and alcohol testing per BART's standard operating procedure.[23] The results showed no drugs or alcohol in his system[28]. He retained a criminal defense attorney and refused to speak to the authorities, invoking the Public Safety Officers Procedural Bill of Rights Act[42] and the Fifth Amendment, claiming potential self-incrimination.[39][43]

    On January 5, 2009, Mehserle's attorney postponed a scheduled meeting by BART investigators, seeking to defer it until the following week. BART Police administration and investigators did not allow this and commanded him to attend an investigative interview on January 7. Mehserle did not attend. Instead, his attorney and his BART Police Officers Association union representative arrived and submitted his resignation letter.[38][44]

    Mehserle and his family received a number of death threats after videos of the shooting appeared, and he subsequently moved at least twice; his parents have also left their Napa home because of death threats to the family.[38][39]
    Oscar Grant

    Oscar Juliuss Grant III, (February 27, 1986[32] – January 1, 2009), lived in Hayward, California.[16] Grant had worked as a butcher at Farmer Joe's Marketplace in Oakland's Dimond District after previous jobs at several Kentucky Fried Chicken outlets.[10] He attended both San Lorenzo and Mount Eden High Schools in Hayward until the 10th grade and eventually earned his GED.[10]

    Grant served two state prison terms for various felonies including a conviction for drug dealing.[33] In 2007 he was sentenced to 16 months in state prison for fleeing "from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol".[10] During that incident, near his Hayward home, San Leandro police shot him with a Taser to subdue him after he threw the pistol into the air and ran.[10] The arresting officers testified that even after being Tased, Grant "continued to resist efforts of the officers to handcuff him".[34]

    Grant was released from prison on September 23, 2008, and according to the attorney for Grant's family, John Burris, "had been doing well in recent months".[10] Burris also stated that the criminal conviction and Tasing was "irrelevant to the BART shooting because Mehserle wasn't aware of it when he opened fire".[10][35]

    In the motion for bail, Mehserle's attorney, Michael Rains, stated that toxicology testing of Grant's blood revealed the presence of alcohol (0.02%) and Fentanyl, a strong narcotic pain reliever.[4] The coroner's bureau said the pathologist's autopsy protocol would be finalized in March 2009.[36]

    Grant's funeral was held at the Palma Ceia Baptist Church in Hayward on January 7, 2009.[37] He is survived by his mother, sister, four-year-old daughter, and girlfriend (his daughter's mother), who are the claimants in a wrongful death claim against BART.

    Edit: I was livid at the police shooting of an unarmed man until I found out he was a twice convicted felon (with one conviction after the birth of his daughter). Mr. Grant was presented as a nonviolent family man in the coverage following the shooting (shown in pictures with his daughter), but seems more like a troublemaker who didn't put his daughter's best interests first. I am in no way condoning the conduct of Mr. Mehserle, but I think in this situation 2nd degree murder isn't the appropriate sentence. My best guess would be a conviction of voluntary/involuntary manslaughter, depending upon whether or not the jury believes Mr. Mehserle intended to kill Mr. Grant.

    Here are the possibilities:

    2nd degree murder: 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life

    voluntary manslaughter: the killing of a human being in which the offender had no prior intent to kill and acted during "the heat of passion", under circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed. In the Uniform Crime Reports prepared by the Federal Bureau of Investigation it is referred to as non negligent manslaughter.

    involuntary manslaughter: an unintentional killing that results from recklessness or criminal negligence, or from an unlawful act that is a misdemeanor or low-level felony (such as DUI). The usual distinction from voluntary manslaughter is that involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called "criminally negligent homicide") is a crime in which the victim's death is unintended.

    acquittal
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Similar Threads

  1. Police shoot & kill wrong man at wrong address because he answered the door armed
    By iwakar in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 07-18-2012, 06:13 PM
  2. Yet ANOTHER police shooting on New Years eve
    By kendoiwan in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-14-2009, 08:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO