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  1. #11
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And that's necessary for you to become a hero, so you're rooting for it?
    No. It's necessary to clear out old ideologies, and make a better future.

    It's a chance to RESET.

    It's a chance to bring in some news ideas, test ignored ones, and throw out those that were outdated/inefficient. We'll still have the same foundation, but a chance to build the infrastructure a little better. (think of this like a house, and we're replacing the rotting supporting beams, but keep the foundation, and perhaps other parts of the structure that made it look the way it did)

    I dunno why. It just feels so invigorating. I feel like my purpose lies in this...
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    No. It's necessary to clear out old ideologies, and make a better future.

    It's a chance to RESET.

    It's a chance to bring in some news ideas, test ignored ones, and throw out those that were outdated/inefficient. We'll still have the same foundation, but a chance to build the infrastructure a little better. (think of this like a house, and we're replacing the rotting supporting beams, but keep the foundation, and perhaps other parts of the structure that made it look the way it did)

    I dunno why. It just feels so invigorating. I feel like my purpose lies in this...
    And really, that's what happens at each turning. Society gets a "refresh" of sorts and starts in a new direction lead by the upcoming generation of that time. Obama's calls for "change" mantra represents what is going to occur over the next 20 years quite well. During a crisis turning it's a very messy engine for change, but after all the turmoil, things can be radically different, and in my belief, better. I've always had the sense, since I was a kid, that life would play out this way which is probably why this theory struck me as being so interesting.

  3. #13
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And really, that's what happens at each turning. Society gets a "refresh" of sorts and starts in a new direction lead by the upcoming generation of that time. Obama's calls for "change" mantra represents what is going to occur over the next 20 years quite well. During a crisis turning it's a very messy engine for change, but after all the turmoil, things can be radically different, and in my belief, better. I've always had the sense, since I was a kid, that life would play out this way which is probably why this theory struck me as being so interesting.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Well, I'm an old fogie who would rather not suffer so you can feel good about saving the world or whatever.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, I'm an old fogie who would rather not suffer so you can feel good about saving the world or whatever.
    Lmao. I'd rather not go through it myself. Is is, however, something that comes because of the previous generations. It can't really be helped...

  6. #16
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    Interesting, I'll have to read further into this when I'm not as sick. *cough* *cough*

    This certainly deals with numerous metahistorical theories.

    Spengler's thesis of metahistory where civilizations follow the same basic cycle of birth, growth, decline, and death. He compared each stage to the seasons(Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter).

    However I'm more sympathetic to Arnold Toynbee's more voluntaristic theory, which states that a civilization will grow or decline based on whether or not it can muster the energy to confront its challenges. Yes civilization die through suicide primarily, but it's not necessarily inevitable as Spengler and others contend. Civilizations often go through decline and rebirth. It's up to "creative minorities" to take the lead in leading their civilization through the crisis.


    Now Risen mentions that Obama's calls for "change" are part of this. Perhaps, but largely on the emotional level. Already now, many analysists are drawing parallels to Obama's election in '08 to Carter's election in '76. So in that sense history may indeed be repeating:
    The mood of the country in 1976 also parallels our present situation, with a pervasive sense of disgust at politics as usual and widespread fears of national decline. As if the end of the Vietnam War and the Watergate fiasco were not catastrophic enough, foreign-policy disasters in Africa and Asia suggested that the U.S. was losing its hegemony. The oil crisis pointed to a vast transfer of wealth and power to the Middle East, while many pundits predicted environmental catastrophe. The sharp economic downturn resulted in heavy unemployment and rising inflation. A concatenation of scandals tarnished once-trusted institutions: corporations, the military, intelligence agencies, police, and, of course, the politicians.


    So disaffected was bicentennial America that it sought leaders unconnected to the establishment. In Jimmy Carter, voters found a candidate whose main qualifications were his lack of experience and connections within the Beltway or corporate worlds. Like Barack Obama, Carter claimed to rise above failed partisanship, while his New South background allowed him to symbolize racial healing. Carter, like Obama, sold himself mainly on the virtues of his character. He presented himself as a man of simple honesty, faith, and decency, and his lack of a track record allowed voters to see in him what they wanted, however far-fetched those hopes might be. If they hadnt believed it, they wouldnt have seen it with their own eyes. Above all, Carter promised change, a message that carried weight as long as its details remained nonspecific. The problem with messiahs from nowhere is that when they do exercise power, people discover to their horror what their leaders actual views and talents are. The disillusion can be dreadful.


    The American Conservative -- The Spirit of ’76
    I'll have to continue on this later.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Interesting, I'll have to read further into this when I'm not as sick. *cough* *cough*

    This certainly deals with numerous metahistorical theories.

    Spengler's thesis of metahistory where civilizations follow the same basic cycle of birth, growth, decline, and death. He compared each stage to the seasons(Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter).

    However I'm more sympathetic to Arnold Toynbee's more voluntaristic theory, which states that a civilization will grow or decline based on whether or not it can muster the energy to confront its challenges. Yes civilization die through suicide primarily, but it's not necessarily inevitable as Spengler and others contend. Civilizations often go through decline and rebirth. It's up to "creative minorities" to take the lead in leading their civilization through the crisis.


    Now Risen mentions that Obama's calls for "change" are part of this. Perhaps, but largely on the emotional level. Already now, many analysists are drawing parallels to Obama's election in '08 to Carter's election in '76. So in that sense history may indeed be repeating:


    I'll have to continue on this later.
    As I think Jung also believed, I have noticed that society is strongly guided by what seems to be a collective unconscious. A type of subconscious motivation towards action and change that leads the whole into these types of cycles. With the election of Obama and the way this society has acted in the past years, all decidedly against its own well being, I could see nothing but an unconscious move toward a dramatic change to ensue through discordant means. As I said, this is perfectly exemplified on the conscious level through Obama's election. His appeal to the people's desires for change was something that hit them on the unconscious level, catering to a trend that was already set in motion but brought to the conscious level through his methods. Obama's strongest pull was, not surprisingly, exercised upon the millennial generation. This desire in the upcoming generation for a shift in society's direction fits the archetype described in the OP very closely.

  8. #18
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Well, I'm an old fogie who would rather not suffer so you can feel good about saving the world or whatever.
    It's more like... bicycle theory... ratchet theory...?
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  9. #19
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    As I think Jung also believed, I have noticed that society is strongly guided by what seems to be a collective unconscious. A type of subconscious motivation towards action and change that leads the whole into these types of cycles. With the election of Obama and the way this society has acted in the past years, all decidedly against its own well being, I could see nothing but an unconscious move toward a dramatic change to ensue through discordant means. As I said, this is perfectly exemplified on the conscious level through Obama's election. His appeal to the people's desires for change was something that hit them on the unconscious level, catering to a trend that was already set in motion but brought to the conscious level through his methods. Obama's strongest pull was, not surprisingly, exercised upon the millennial generation. This desire in the upcoming generation for a shift in society's direction fits the archetype described in the OP very closely.
    Perhaps, but there can also be the dimension of mass society and politics involved here. It was also an issue not neglected by Jung either.

  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I don't really see it, honestly. It's just really easy for people to take a few examples of people doing things in one generation, and then blow them out of proportion to apply to the whole generation. Usually what they choose to emphasize is influenced by what kind of current events and fears permeate the climate at the time.

    I think there have always been several types of people in each generation. For instance, not every teenager in the 60's was a hippy, nor did all of those who didn't become one oppose them. Some of them just didn't get caught up with that kind of thing, but the people we end up remembering, who make impressions on us... were the ones who did.

    I'd say these cycles have more to do with the way people's memories tend to work, than how things really are. I could see the archetypes taking place in individuals based on their personal lives, perhaps... but not on a broad cultural scale.

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