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  1. #81
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post


    Reminds me of those utilitarianism arguements.
    Care to actually debate the statement? Or are you satisfied just trying to demean it by associating it with something else?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #82
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    It's a value based position so there's not much point in debating the whole thing since it'll ultimately come to a case of "My fundamental belief is X" and yours being something else, in this case the intrisic value of human life. For example another friend doesn't believe there's much value in caring for other species outside the human race, where as I believe all life should at least deserve minimal suffering.

    Otherwise I just thought it was a rather cold but pragmatic approach to life. You're free to hold that belief. You ever heard of the trolley problems?

    "A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?" A variation of that one being the that the single person is extremely wealthy business man that contributed much to the economy.

    It just almost seems as if you wouldn't have much problem deciding which one to select but that could be an assumption on my behalf.

  3. #83
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    The dude's a piece of shit who committed murder because he didn't want to support his own child.

    This isn't like the Ted Bundy case - this guy isn't an interesting psychopath, he's just another run of the mill piece of shit who doesn't want to pay child support, but this time went so far as to kill a child.

    I'm not for the death sentence in most cases, but in this instance, I am.

  4. #84
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The dude's a piece of shit who committed murder because he didn't want to support his own child.

    This isn't like the Ted Bundy case - this guy isn't an interesting psychopath, he's just another run of the mill piece of shit who doesn't want to pay child support, but this time went so far as to kill a child.

    I'm not for the death sentence in most cases, but in this instance, I am.
    You don't think he's a bit different from most people? I certainly do. He would probably qualify as antisocial, and society could benefit from studying antisocial people. Like I've said, the methods we have now will be improved upon; I'm confident that eventually we could discover some sort of neurological abnormality common to most people with APD. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking frontal lobe abnormalities could come into play.

    If you're for the death penalty, then you are. You can't be wishy-washy about it and arbitrarily decide one case is more heinous than another, so therefore that person should die. Who are you to determine what is and isn't most disturbing? Someone else may be more disturbed by a man who rapes then kills his mother. Should they be able to decide he should die? One death does not necessitate another because there is no justice to be found. Also, even on a moral level, just because the man took a life does not mean that other people are entitled to take his. Murder is murder, whether it is publicly sanctioned or not. If you kill people in a war, then you are a murderer. The fact that your country sanctioned that murder makes no difference in the absolute value of a life. It's a slippery slope when you start assigning more value to some lives than others -- this is arbitrary and subjective. Hitler decided that Jews weren't worth much either, and he justified killing them using a similar subjective value judgment to yours.

    /Godwin!

  5. #85
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    Nope, this is not like Hitler either. Hitler killed people on the basis of their race, not their individual actions. So you're achieving nothing here by overgeneralizing.

    Many people commit murder and are perfectly sane. Being a murderer doesn't automatically mean that you're mentally ill, nor does it indicate that society has done you wrong in any way. In fact, some people commit murder because they are narcissists, not because they had such a hard life.

    "You're for the death penalty or you're not" is overgeneralizing to. A person can believe in the death penalty under certain criteria, it certainly doesn't mean that one believes that death should come to every single individual who has killed someone.

    Saying that I think that a man who murdered his own child because he (selfishly) did not want to pay child support is not exactly an "arbitrary" moral judgement, either. Most people would agree that child murderers and child rapists have a very special place in their hearts.

    Who said anything about justice? I don't want him to die because of any silly "life for a life" overgeneralization. I want him to die because a man who would murder his own flesh and blood over a couple hundred dollars a month surely won't hold other human beings in much esteem if they get into his narcissistic little way, either. Why keep this monster alive with government funding? The government has more important things to spend their money on - like kids whose daddies won't pay child support.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    It just almost seems as if you wouldn't have much problem deciding which one to select but that could be an assumption on my behalf.
    I wouldn't.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #87
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    That poor innocent baby! He'll never live to go to school and meet new friends, graduate, go to college, meet a girl (or guy ) and start a family, become a grandparent. He had a whole life ahead of him, and it dissapeared quickly through the carelessness, rage, and/or hatred of this horrible man. I hope the sick, cheap, selfish bastard gets punished to the full extent of the law.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    It's a value based position so there's not much point in debating the whole thing since it'll ultimately come to a case of "My fundamental belief is X" and yours being something else, in this case the intrisic value of human life. For example another friend doesn't believe there's much value in caring for other species outside the human race, where as I believe all life should at least deserve minimal suffering.

    Otherwise I just thought it was a rather cold but pragmatic approach to life. You're free to hold that belief. You ever heard of the trolley problems?

    "A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch, which will lead the trolley down a different track to safety. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?" A variation of that one being the that the single person is extremely wealthy business man that contributed much to the economy.

    It just almost seems as if you wouldn't have much problem deciding which one to select but that could be an assumption on my behalf.

    The wealthy businessman dies, automatically, no questioned asked. Easy question.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Nope, this is not like Hitler either. Hitler killed people on the basis of their race, not their individual actions. So you're achieving nothing here by overgeneralizing.
    Hitler made arbitrary decisions about who deserved to die. You are making an arbitrary decision about who deserves to die. The reasons are irrelevant; neither of you assign equal value to all human life. That is the common thread.

    Many people commit murder and are perfectly sane. Being a murderer doesn't automatically mean that you're mentally ill, nor does it indicate that society has done you wrong in any way. In fact, some people commit murder because they are narcissists, not because they had such a hard life.
    You are really showing your ignorance here. Yes, many people who kill are sane. Those people typically commit impulsive crimes of passion. I don't think what this dude did falls into that category. Also, in the mental health field, there are Axis I and Axis II diagnoses. Axis I disorder are considered treatable: depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. Axis II disorders are the character disorders and developmental disorders: all personality disorders fall here, as well as mental retardation and so on. People with Axis II disorders are generally not "considered" mentally ill for complex reasons that don't often reflect the reality of their condition.They still have significant mental impairment. You are using narcissist in the lay sense, I think. NPD is a character disorder, a mental problem. Axis II. Being a narcissist does not mean you didn't have a hard life; chances are, there was neglect or some type of abuse, but not necessarily. Narcissism doesn't exist in a vacuum. No, not all murderers have been wronged by society. Who said they were? Again, no relation to whether or not they are have a mental problem or illness.

    Insurance will not pay as much to treat Axis II disorders because they are ingrained, long standing conditions that are not going to change. The politics involved in diagnoses overshadow the fact that both groups have mental problems. So, call Axis I disorders mental illness, and Axis II disorders mental problems, however you want. The bottom line is the same. Mentally unhealthy.



    "You're for the death penalty or you're not" is overgeneralizing to. A person can believe in the death penalty under certain criteria, it certainly doesn't mean that one believes that death should come to every single individual who has killed someone.
    I meant generally, not in every case. The bottom line is the same...you make value judgments about who deserves to live and who doesn't. And again, who are you to make those decisions? You're saying that the value of human life is relative, which is not a position I agree with because it's far too arbitrary and fuzzy. In short, dangerous.

    Saying that I think that a man who murdered his own child because he (selfishly) did not want to pay child support is not exactly an "arbitrary" moral judgement, either. Most people would agree that child murderers and child rapists have a very special place in their hearts.

    Whew, good thing you put "selfishly" in parenthesis there. I mean....it is? Really? Besides, isn't selfishness kind of mild compared to murder? Anyway...
    Just because most people would agree doesn't mean it isn't arbitrary. Groups make arbitrary decisions all the time.

    Who said anything about justice? I don't want him to die because of any silly "life for a life" overgeneralization. I want him to die because a man who would murder his own flesh and blood over a couple hundred dollars a month surely won't hold other human beings in much esteem if they get into his narcissistic little way, either. Why keep this monster alive with government funding? The government has more important things to spend their money on - like kids whose daddies won't pay child support.
    It cost more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life. Just found that out recently. And no, he probably isn't going to hold other human beings in much esteem. That's why he goes to prison for life.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker View Post
    Hitler made arbitrary decisions about who deserved to die. You are making an arbitrary decision about who deserves to die. The reasons are irrelevant; neither of you assign equal value to all human life. That is the common thread.



    You are really showing your ignorance here. Yes, many people who kill are sane. Those people typically commit impulsive crimes of passion. I don't think what this dude did falls into that category. Also, in the mental health field, there are Axis I and Axis II diagnoses. Axis I disorder are considered treatable: depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia. Axis II disorders are the character disorders and developmental disorders: all personality disorders fall here, as well as mental retardation and so on. People with Axis II disorders are generally not "considered" mentally ill for complex reasons that don't often reflect the reality of their condition.They still have significant mental impairment. You are using narcissist in the lay sense, I think. NPD is a character disorder, a mental problem. Axis II. Being a narcissist does not mean you didn't have a hard life; chances are, there was neglect or some type of abuse, but not necessarily. Narcissism doesn't exist in a vacuum. No, not all murderers have been wronged by society. Who said they were? Again, no relation to whether or not they are have a mental problem or illness.

    Insurance will not pay as much to treat Axis II disorders because they are ingrained, long standing conditions that are not going to change. The politics involved in diagnoses overshadow the fact that both groups have mental problems. So, call Axis I disorders mental illness, and Axis II disorders mental problems, however you want. The bottom line is the same. Mentally unhealthy.





    I meant generally, not in every case. The bottom line is the same...you make value judgments about who deserves to live and who doesn't. And again, who are you to make those decisions? You're saying that the value of human life is relative, which is not a position I agree with because it's far too arbitrary and fuzzy. In short, dangerous.




    Whew, good thing you put "selfishly" in parenthesis there. I mean....it is? Really? Besides, isn't selfishness kind of mild compared to murder? Anyway...
    Just because most people would agree doesn't mean it isn't arbitrary. Groups make arbitrary decisions all the time.



    It cost more to execute someone than to keep them in prison for life. Just found that out recently. And no, he probably isn't going to hold other human beings in much esteem. That's why he goes to prison for life.
    Two things really quick:

    1) you call me "ignorant" yet you obviously don't realize that narcissistic personality disorder is very different from just being a narcissistic person - seriously, they aren't the same thing

    2) You keep bringing up Hitler, which is ridiculous, so I'm just not going to talk to you anymore. Anyone who consistently compares other people to Hitler in arguments unrelated to world domination and genocyde is not someone I take seriously.

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