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  1. #61
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Aside: I'm not altogether comfortable with making wisdom the barometer of human value either. What about old people who aren't that wise? If they just watch TV and listen to Paul Harvey and don't dispense gems of wisdom, and maybe even annoy their grandchildren, does that make them less valuable or human than Elaur's grandmother?

    To address the thread topic, though, the guy definitely needs to be removed from society. The argument, I guess, is whether killing him is going too far. I think it is, because it takes away any chance of redemption later in life.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Aside: I'm not altogether comfortable with making wisdom the barometer of human value either. What about old people who aren't that wise? If they just watch TV and listen to Paul Harvey and don't dispense gems of wisdom, and maybe even annoy their grandchildren, does that make them less valuable or human than Elaur's grandmother?
    A philosophical discussion!

    I'll propose that the primary consideration, since we aren't the individual, but are judging the individual, would be his effect on the prosperity of others, physical or emotional. The more and the greater positive changes he makes on his community, minus the more and greater negative changes, the more valuable he is.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Agreed. Also, you guys are seriously taking things out of proportion.
    Circumstances can show his state of mind, which is used to determine future expectations (in this case, they're negative). There's a big difference between someone like this man and someone who...let's say the mother kills the father because of this. He's far more likely to kill again than she would be. If you believe those two should be handled equally, well, I'll just call you an SJ. Rules are rules, right?

    Depends. At the present, yes. In the future, that possibility does certainly exists.
    We're in the present, not some fantasy world you've imagined in your head.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #64
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    A philosophical discussion!

    I'll propose that the primary consideration, since we aren't the individual, but are judging the individual, would be his effect on the prosperity of others, physical or emotional. The more and the greater positive changes he makes on his community, minus the more and greater negative changes, the more valuable he is.
    You would also need to factor in the social cost of disposing the individual when determining whether or not to terminate.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #65
    Member Eye-In-TiPi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, I'm still not sure why we're all that interested in the value and wisdom of a guy who would kill his toddler to avoid having to pay for the child's support and financial well-being. That ship has sailed, IMO. He decided that the kid was in the way of him living the life he wanted to live. He decided that the child's life had no value. I have no problem deciding that his has no value.
    I completely agree with that. No matter what this guy has to offer, nothing could make up for the fact that he murdered an innocent child. If it were up to me, he would be on death row. Of course, it's not up to me. It's up to the good people of Louisiana, where just last year they were disappointed to find out that they couldn't give the death penalty to child rapists.

  6. #66
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Yes. The argument against "old people" is usually that they have no profit because they don't work anymore. My point was that her worth comes from having wisdom (and being a grandmother) rather than from working hard or bearing children since those are two of the most common things people use for "worth" in these discussions.
    I vote for a board of inquiry to determine the respective value of wisdom, given the elevated future costs of medical care and so forth. Clearly at some point there will be a switch over between positive and negative values, at which point it will become academic to purge those that are net negative.

    (In general to the thread: )
    Value is a dangerous ground on which to base moral decisions. Rationalizing a principle that would be handed over to a group of individuals with no personal responsibility... not what I want to see. This isn't just about him, in a clear cut case. The same rules will apply across the board, to others that are not so clear cut. Especially notable given the rate of false imprisonments.

    Not to mention, in the cost benefit analysis, the US spends a huge amount for those on death row. Hardly an efficient social choice. Besides, no matter what value life could have, you are sinking bad money after bad by killing him - clear cut sunk cost, as horrible as the sounds. If you believe in "value for society", he should be sold into slavery or some situation.


    I understand the interest in being morally ambiguous but I think you are stretching it a bit much. Perhaps years from now we will be allowed to dispose of our young children if they arent convenient, but right now 2.5 year olds are protected and, in an overall sense, valued in our country. Murderers of young children are not.
    I don't think that is the issue. Killing anyone is negative - that is what our system says. Only now we say "killing people is sometimes ok". That carries a large cost - and the difference is that we can make him personally responsible for what he did - we can never make the system that condemns him personally responsible.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Wow, absolutely disgusting. What kills me is how these folks end up getting married in the first place. You can't tell me this guy wasn't a primo douchebag from the beginning.

    This happened in my home state--believe me, he'll pay. Louisiana folk will want to see him fry for killing a toddler.
    ITA...I've had friends try to set me up with losers that lived with mommy, daddy or grandma/grandpa and were too lazy to even bother trying to find a job and all that...I mean living at homes one thing if you have the desire to move out and you HAVE a job but who would date someone that was lazy and sat on the couch/played games all day possibly gets high...thats just setting yourself up to end up with one of those whack jobs believe what pe- ople want you to hear enough times and eventually your setting yourself up to beleive something like whatever that guy said to be able to get married.
    you have all the power you need if you dare to look
    for it.

  8. #68
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Life can be tough, I'm aware - but this case is plain sickening. Why on earth did this prick marry, and end up having a kid... having taking his life at a vulnerable age, because he didn't seem 'fit' to pay for his child support?

    ... What needs to be done to him as punishment? Well, that's for the community he's part of to decide - not to mention... show his face to the public, and watch him 'squeal' in shame for the crime.

    Wouldn't we like that?

  9. #69
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Third Rider View Post
    You make sound A LOT nicer than it really is, my uncle was in jail for 4 years and he would HEAVELY disagree with your assessment. Believe me I am sure that the inmates would let him have it for what he did. Death is too quick he needs some torture.
    What utilitarian value would that have? A knee jerk emotional response -- "Kill him! Torture him! Castrate him!" -- does nothing. It will not bring the child back. It will not make him regret his actions. It will not spare the mother grief. The whole concept of "justice" falls flat in certain types of cases, including murder. Justice is righting a wrong. If I steal your tv, I should repay you or buy you another tv. You can't resurrect the dead. Killing another person to avenge the death of the first makes no sense. It's a perverse illusion of justice; you are pacified for your loss, you get a consolation prize....still, that child is dead. The only way to reap any benefit from the situation is to try to understand people capable of doing such heinous things to others. Study them. Understand their motivations. Use them as guinea pigs in a lab.

    Killing Ted Bundy was a waste of a fantastic psychopathic case study. As neuroscience progresses, perhaps certain brain abnormalities would have been revealed. This guy should be sent to jail for life and studied.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunset5678 View Post
    ITA...I've had friends try to set me up with losers that lived with mommy, daddy or grandma/grandpa and were too lazy to even bother trying to find a job and all that...I mean living at homes one thing if you have the desire to move out and you HAVE a job but who would date someone that was lazy and sat on the couch/played games all day possibly gets high...thats just setting yourself up to end up with one of those whack jobs believe what pe- ople want you to hear enough times and eventually your setting yourself up to beleive something like whatever that guy said to be able to get married.
    Holy snap stereotypes and judgments, Batman!

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