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  1. #51
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Both can easily be seen as having little value to society. They both often are. Especially the paralyzed, the demented and the violent psychotics.
    It's not just about value. That's only part of the equation. You have to consider the risk of keeping an individual around. The old and paralyzed pose virtually no risk to society. Violent psychotics do. I would entertain ideas on how to dispose of them.

    Btw, nice shift in your argument. I'm curious how your argument is going to shift in your next post.

    I'm saying that it's a mass of personal values that suggest killing a child is anything other than a neutral act. You said personal distaste should not get in the way of the most practical course of action, I am saying that personal distaste is why it is the most practical course of action in the first place.
    I see what you're trying to do here, but it's not working. There would be massive negative societal repercussions if infanticide was allowed. Morality doesn't even need to be considered.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not just about value. That's only part of the equation. You have to consider the risk of keeping an individual around. The old and paralyzed pose virtually no risk to society. Violent psychotics do. I would entertain ideas on how to dispose of them.
    Is it not the risk that they will hurt/drain society somehow? Much like the other categories of people I mentioned might do simply by existing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I see what you're trying to do here, but it's not working. There would be massive negative societal repercussions if infanticide was allowed. Morality doesn't even need to be considered.
    So you are saying it is not your own morality that judges the repercussions as "massively negative"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Btw, nice shift in your argument. I'm curious how your argument is going to shift in your next post.
    What are you referring to?

  3. #53
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Is it not the risk that they will hurt/drain society somehow? Much like the other categories of people I mentioned do simply by existing.
    The emotional impact of executing old people would be more negative than the financial impact of keeping them around.

    So you are saying it is not your own morality that judges the repercussions as "massively negative"?
    Correct. Not all judgments are moral judgments. Stating that an act would decrease stability in a society is not a moral judgment.

    What are you referring to?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #54
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    I have an idea: put him in jail, castrate him, and then chop off his head.

    Then everyone is happy.

    P.S. Not the mother or the kid, but I don't that can be changed now...

    By everyone, I mean the people thinking about his punishment.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The emotional impact of executing old people would be more negative than the financial impact of keeping them around.
    Fair enough. A difficult thing to measure, but I can see the point. It is a moral judgement though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Correct. Not all judgments are moral judgments. Stating that an act would decrease stability in a society is not a moral judgment.
    Stating it is simply an observation, judging that it is a bad thing is a moral judgement.

    I was referring to your desire to execute the man before, not suggesting infanticide should be legal. Your claim was that one should not let morality get in the way of executing him. My claim is that morality has already been used to judge him worthy of execution, thus attempting to show that your claim is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I'm unaware of what you are talking about. An explaination would be nice.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think he's guilty of murder. He should be treated accordingly. The child support and the fact that it was his child just don't matter now. That part is rhetoric to make people emotional, and I'm not falling for it.

    What happened here is a man killed a child intentionally. That's all that needs to be said. Nothing else matters.
    Agreed. Also, you guys are seriously taking things out of proportion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The emotional impact of executing old people would be more negative than the financial impact of keeping them around.
    Depends. At the present, yes. In the future, that possibility does certainly exists.

  7. #57
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    What about very old/disabled people? Are they not in the same position?
    No, my grandmother is 94 years old. She has intense value and wisdom. Just being old doesn't make someone worthless. I see where you are trying to go with it, that a man who kills his defenseless child is the same as an old/sick person but it doesn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Without personal distaste, the man has done nothing wrong. Let alone value and practicality are both very personal things.
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but this appears to be trolling. If on a moral level you believe there is nothing wrong with killing someone that is one argument. But even in that argument you fail to realize that these people lived in a country/world that doesn't agree with what he did and has laws against it.

    You can not just pick and choose what laws you want to obey. If I speed I get a ticket, even though inherently there isn't any reason that I shouldn't be able to drive my car at 65 miles an hour on my street. He broke the law and he will be tried with the rules that were part of the laws of the country he was living in at the time.

    Even if someone killed you and you had believed it was morally ambiguous when you were alive they would still be prosecuted.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    No, my grandmother is 94 years old. She has intense value and wisdom. Just being old doesn't make someone worthless. I see where you are trying to go with it, that a man who kills his defenseless child is the same as an old/sick person but it doesn't work.
    So the murderer has less value and wisdom than the old person?


    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but this appears to be trolling. If on a moral level you believe there is nothing wrong with killing someone that is one argument. But even in that argument you fail to realize that these people lived in a country/world that doesn't agree with what he did and has laws against it.

    You can not just pick and choose what laws you want to obey. If I speed I get a ticket, even though inherently there isn't any reason that I shouldn't be able to drive my car at 65 miles an hour on my street. He broke the law and he will be tried with the rules that were part of the laws of the country he was living in at the time.

    Even if someone killed you and you had believed it was morally ambiguous when you were alive they would still be prosecuted.
    My own morality has nothing to do with my argument. Lateralus was claiming that the death sentence is not given for moral reasons, I disagreed. All my posts in this thread have been arguing that point.

    If you must know, I think murder is a crime worthy of a long jail sentence. I still think the murderer has a lot of value and usefulness however, irrelevant as it is to my point. I suppose I should mention I also think severely old and disabled people have value.

  9. #59
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    So the murderer has less value and wisdom than the old person?
    <snip>
    Yes. The argument against "old people" is usually that they have no profit because they don't work anymore. My point was that her worth comes from having wisdom (and being a grandmother) rather than from working hard or bearing children since those are two of the most common things people use for "worth" in these discussions.

    I understand the interest in being morally ambiguous but I think you are stretching it a bit much. Perhaps years from now we will be allowed to dispose of our young children if they arent convenient, but right now 2.5 year olds are protected and, in an overall sense, valued in our country. Murderers of young children are not.

  10. #60
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm still not sure why we're all that interested in the value and wisdom of a guy who would kill his toddler to avoid having to pay for the child's support and financial well-being. That ship has sailed, IMO. He decided that the kid was in the way of him living the life he wanted to live. He decided that the child's life had no value. I have no problem deciding that his has no value.
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