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  1. #111
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    yes.
    If you honestly hold that opinion, I have to assume you're lying.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #112
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm not a guy, I've never been on INFP logic, and to say that you would push me (a real person, not a completely fictitious and abstract concept from a silly philosophical problem) off of a bridge is totally uncalled for.:steam:

    Socialists represent a huge potential danger to others? Ah, yes, all of those dangerous French people, I'm so afriad of them. The Swiss, too, and the Canadians. What are you even talking about?
    Abstracts represent real people, whose lives you apparently value less than others because they are rich. I was using sarcasm as a means of highlighting just how objectionable your position was, I am not actually a right-wing equivalent of the persona you projected through your post.

    Also, with the partial exception of France (which has a strong, albeit fractious socialist party as well as a depressingly large Euro-Communist electorate), the countries you mentioned are not particularly socialist overall, by international standards. At most, such countries are, to varying degrees, social-liberal in orientation, which means that, contrary to socialism, so-called negative individual rights (social, political, and property) are still regarded as paramount, but only moderately so ("too much" inequality is viewed as detrimental to the overall optimization of individual rights). As part of their differences with socialists, social-liberals do not think rich people (generally speaking) are scum who achieve wealth at the expense of the poor, but rather as entrepenuers who create or find economic value where none had existed before.

    As for how socialism poses a threat to others, I would just reccomend that you read The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek, as he explained it better than I ever could.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 05-21-2009 at 02:27 PM. Reason: poor word choice

  3. #113
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No, he's known as just marmalade here too. Of course that doesn't rule out the possibility of a sock puppet, but that would just be too obvious!
    Okay, the name similarities combined with the cat avatar threw me off.

    Incidentally, M.s., I love your avatar.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Abstracts represent real people, whose lives you apparently value less than others because they are rich. I was using sarcasm as a means of highlighting just how objectionable your position was, I am not actually a right-wing equivalent of the persona you projected through your post.

    Also, with the partial exception of France (which has a strong, albeit fractious socialist party as well as a depressingly large Euro-Communist electorate), the countries you mentioned are not particularly socialist overall, by international standards. At most, such countries are, to varying degrees, social-liberal in orientation, which means that, contrary to socialism, so-called negative individual rights (social, political, and property) are still regarded as paramount, but only moderately so ("too much" inequality is viewed as detrimental to the overall optimization of individual rights). As part of their differences with socialists, social-liberals do not think rich people (generally speaking) are scum who achieve wealth at the expense of the poor, but rather as entrepenuers who create or find economic value where none had existed before.

    As for how socialism poses a threat to others, I would just reccomend that you read The Road to Serfdom by F. A. Hayek, as he explained it better than I ever could.
    FA Hayek is a student of the Austrian Economic theorists, which are complete and utter bullshit, not just in my personal opinion, but in the opinions of most academic economists for the simple fact that Austrian economic theory cannot be proven with real numbers.

    Do you think there isn't already abundant reading material available to me how Socialism poses a threat to others? And did you honestly think that I want to kill all (or any? I'm not really into killing) rich people, or that I subscribe to the type of extreme Socialism practiced in countries like Cuba or China or the USSR?

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If you honestly hold that opinion, I have to assume you're lying.
    1) My sincere, honest RL opinions are not nearly that extreme or stereotypical. I was obviously being glib, and even spelled it out a few posts later.

    2)
    I really, really hate it when people on the intertardz try to throw up John D. Rockefeller as an example of a robber baron with a great heart. Yes, the man became a philanthropist, but only after basically being court-ordered into retirement for extremely ill-gotten corporate monopoly.

    John D. Rockefeller only became a philanthropist after he got caught red handed being a piece of shit who was screwing over the public, not to mention breaking laws. Personally, I think it was a mixture of a move to "save face" with the public and Christian fear of going to hell.

    Besides, he only donated 500 million of his billions to education, religious institutions, etc. It's not like he took a vow of poverty - or even a vow of middle class - in the name of his philanthropy. And all of his little decendants (except WV Dem Jay) are good little grubby fisted bankers and Republicans.

    It shouldn't bother me because the type of people who hold him up high are also the types who show their obvious lack of sound university education by dropping such nuggets of wisdom as:

    In addition, Rockefeller had a natural right to the wealth he accumulated, according to William Graham Sumner's theory of Social Darwinism.

    In addition, we can compare John D. Rockefeller's philanthropy to the hypothetical philanthropy of the Wal-Mart corporation: would you really want Wal-Mart holding sway that much fiscal power over important institutions? You might think it's cool, but I don't.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Okay, the name similarities combined with the cat avatar threw me off.

    Incidentally, M.s., I love your avatar.
    Thanks.

  7. #117
    Lasting_Pain
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    This went from the child murder, to moral arguments on the death penalty, to the subject of utilitarianism, and now we are at the evils of socialism. I am just waiting for God to be mentioned in this debate.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    This went from the child murder, to moral arguments on the death penalty, to the subject of utilitarianism, and now the we are at the evils of socialism. I am just waiting for God to be mentioned in this debate.
    Don't forget the evils of Capitalism, too!

    But seriously, yeah, it's really off topic and should end, I agree.

  9. #119
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Don't forget the evils of Capitalism, too!

    But seriously, yeah, it's really off topic and should end, I agree.
    Now all we need is a random smiley and the death of this topic will be official.





  10. #120
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    See, now, that's the reason I'm in favor of the death penalty. Shit.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

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