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  1. #11
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Wouldnt the cost of all that extra bureacracy/corruption be a problem?
    Extra corruption is less likely to damage the electorate on a regional level, since - rather paradoxically - what a bribing firm that lives near you wants is more likely to be aligned with what you want in comparison to what a bribing firm from the other side of the country wants. (this in the worst case scenario).
    More optimistically: politicians generally care about being re-elected. Situations of corruption on a local level are more easily noticeable than those on national level, thus unless the political competition is zero, it's more likely that the guy will think about it twice. (I'm not making this stuff up - there's a good deal of models that have been created and tested on the matter).

    Bureucracy: I'm not sure that it'd be much worse than today? I don't know how it works in the US, but here it's full of local offices that are set in place only to act as intermediaries with the central government. Moreoever, even in the worst possible scenario (that is, that the bureucracy costs were higher), the great majority of these costs would be without any doubt directed towards services useful to people living in the given region/city, rather than being aimed at the district that counts most in terms of national votes (which is what happens with centralized government - the district that weighs more, in electoral terms (so usually the most neutral), is guaranteed larger amounts of taxpayer money).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Generally speaking: the more the government is centralized (i.e., the more tha national median voter counts), the more government intervention will be skewed and not beneficial. I am personally in favor of constructing an extremely small central goverment, coupled with mid-sized delocalized regional (smaller than the current american states, though), parliaments. Obviously, this solution should be specifically tailored in a way that allows the easy construction of interstate infrastructure, yet denies the central government any power on regional matters.
    You sound almost Jeffersonian, almost.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Generally speaking: the more the government is centralized (i.e., the more tha national median voter counts), the more government intervention will be skewed and not beneficial. I am personally in favor of constructing an extremely small central goverment, coupled with mid-sized delocalized regional (smaller than the current american states, though), parliaments. Obviously, this solution should be specifically tailored in a way that allows the easy construction of interstate infrastructure, yet denies the central government any power on regional matters.
    If the Commerce Clause had been interpreted with any kind of sense, this is what we would have had.

  4. #14
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I fail to see the connection between 'poor cows'/'meat factories'/etc and government regulation.

    If anything, that's exactly what a lack of regulation does - force the bottom line by finding ways to slice away at all costs of production. Economy of scale is in full force in the meat industry. Changing the cost of feed, available to all meat producers, would make no notable difference, unless the food chain requirements were not bound together (they are: land to grow food < land to graze for food, and the difference in arable land is irrelevent as anything that is growable for feed can be churned at a higher rate through specialization).
    PT, I certainly won't disagree that it's an example of economy of scale, but it's the government handouts that make the present scale tenable in the first place. Were it not for the handouts, the price of corn would be suitable in relation to the demand, having the expected effect on McDonald's business plan.

    You can get hypothetical and posit that were it not for the corn companies like McDonald's would find some other way, but even so, given that the present way means feeding cows a diet that barely keeps them alive and living conditions that, until now, have barely prevented the outbreak of some life-threatening mega-germ, unless this hypothetical "some other way" was food pellets made of pestilence, I don't see how it could possibly be any worse.

    Which is to say: separating state and economy would solve numerous ills, while in a worst case scenario occasionally allowing the exact problems we have in a mixed economy anyway!

    It should also be noted that even when companies do go overboard with this sort of nonsense, it's reaction to consumer outrage that prompts reform. A perfect example is the present "green" movement. The only reason companies are bothering to make "greener" products is because people are demanding them. If the demand wasn't there, you can be sure that corporations would just use their pull with government to see to it that any legislature attempting to force companies to produce more environmentally-friendly products was worded into useless ambiguity at best, or, more likely, worded in such a fashion to be easily taken advantage of by the largest corporations at the expense of smaller manufacturers.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #15
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Mixed economies FTW, seriously. Just take a look at almost every successful economy in existence today.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Mixed economies FTW, seriously. Just take a look at almost every successful economy in existence today.
    Being an INTP, I'm sure you're aware that this argument is non sequitur. So why bother making it?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Mixed economies FTW, seriously. Just take a look at almost every successful economy in existence today.
    I don't think it would work as easily for a country with a large population and land as the U.S. (or France, or Germany, for the matter). There are empirical studies that show that the more dishomogeneous a contry is - in terms of ethnicity, landscape, wealth, etc - the less effective is a centralized goverment (for obvious reasons: an average in a country with a very peaked distribution will make almost everybody unhappy, whereas in a very kurtotic and skewed one almost everybody will be unhappy).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    PT, I certainly won't disagree that it's an example of economy of scale, but it's the government handouts that make the present scale tenable in the first place. Were it not for the handouts, the price of corn would be suitable in relation to the demand, having the expected effect on McDonald's business plan.
    Don't get me wrong, I meant only that the argument went too far and weakened itself as a result. There are a lot of issues with subsidies, but the moral part of how animals are treated is not a result of corn subsidies (feed subsidies). The overall quality of feed, maybe, although I suspect that it wouldn't - it would just replace one feed with another - but the nature of slaughter houses would be a natural result of an unregulated economy.

    (Short of social desire to see it changed, anyway.)

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