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  1. #11
    Senior Member Erudur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Two ideas:

    1. Communist revolution
    2. Abolish money altogether, and build a trade-based society

    Does anybody know of an example where a communist revolution had a long term benefit to the society as a whole. I am stunned at the dismal record. Czarist Russia sucked but somehow the soviet union managed to suck worse. Comparing N to S Korea, E to W Germany, Cuba, Nicaragua, China, .... It seems that universally communist revolutions have resulted in more poverty overall, yet similar corruption and abuse at the top (just by a new set of faces).

    Looking microeconomically, it seems that communism reduces productivity by removing incentive, and increases inefficiency by requiring larger government to control everything.

  2. #12
    Senior Member FallsPioneer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    obviously in this age of capitalism, these are the two apparent prosepcts:

    competition is centered around money
    we are overdependent on money above all other resources

    there is no way is stop losing money to the economy, no matter how hard we work. That leaves us the question, if everyone loses money to the economy, why are some people rich and some people not.

    Don't tell me people are rich because they work harder, some people work their ass off and stayed (cleaning restrooms, construction workers) and theytt still are poor as hell.
    Money is, although a helpful sort of language to communicate value, a fabrication. We don't need money to do shit.

    Working doesn't necessarily mean that you're guaranteed money, either, and we've a bunch of people getting laid off in America recently. Half of the time the people who became rich/well-off caught a break of some sort and it's very few who start humbly and rise to the top, socioeconomically. American society is one that perpetuates the classes.

    Not only do the rich have more money to lose to the economy, but they also have things to protect themselves with that allow them to sit on their money too.
    Still using a needle to break apart a grain of sand.

  3. #13
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    Everyday, you are losing money.
    that means if you stop working you are flat broke.
    How do you reverse this trend?
    Die.


    For a more useful point of view: You can't. However, you can slow it by spending less.
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  4. #14
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erudur View Post
    Does anybody know of an example where a communist revolution had a long term benefit to the society as a whole. I am stunned at the dismal record. Czarist Russia sucked but somehow the soviet union managed to suck worse. Comparing N to S Korea, E to W Germany, Cuba, Nicaragua, China, .... It seems that universally communist revolutions have resulted in more poverty overall, yet similar corruption and abuse at the top (just by a new set of faces).

    Looking microeconomically, it seems that communism reduces productivity by removing incentive, and increases inefficiency by requiring larger government to control everything.
    Firstly, you're right.

    Secondly, it's important to note that I was joking. I'm sorry - I guess that wasn't very clear. (I had no idea that this thread was genuinely serious!)

    Thirdly, I'm just as against Communism as you are - it has never worked, and it never will work, for many reasons including the fact that, because of human nature, society requires leadership. I was thinking of Communism in theory - you know, the peaceful utopian state where everyone lives and works in harmony and equality? Yeah. I was under the impression that you didn't really need money in the IDEAL Communist society. Not sure if I'm right; it's been a while since I've read the Communist Manifesto.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  5. #15
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    Everyday, you are losing money.
    that means if you stop working you are flat broke.
    How do you reverse this trend?
    Well, you can try go living somewhere natural resources are so naturally abudant that you can live off nature without working, where there are no threats so you can live without an home, and there are no illnesses so you can live without meds. I'm not being sarcastic - in this situation you wouldn't need any money, that is, you wouldn't need either your own work or the work of other people in order to live. Because money is (generally - let's leave bequest as an exception for now) a medium that represents compensation for work done, thus if there is no need for work, there is no (strict) need for money.

    there is no way is stop losing money to the economy, no matter how hard we work. That leaves us the question, if everyone loses money to the economy, why are some people rich and some people not.

    Don't tell me people are rich because they work harder, some people work their ass off and stayed (cleaning restrooms, construction workers) and theytt still are poor as hell.
    Let's get some notions straight: everybody is losing some money, however the net balance is not negative for everybody - some are earning more than they are expending, vice versa for others. The reason why some people are richer can be broadly grouped into three cathegories, that are usually mutiplicative (that is: the absence of one of them acts as a bottleneck to the final result):
    1)wealth of the person's family(mostly parents)
    2)ability of the person to accomplish tasks that are widely-requested and scarce (thus, very profitable)
    3)quantity of work

    So, as you say, some people (like restroom cleaners and construction workers) do indeed work their ass off, but probably weren't very wealthy to begin with, and the ability to clean restrooms is not scarce enough. Anyway, thinking about it, construction workers sometimes earn a very good salary, depending on their skill, experience and demand for housing.

    Equitable societies generally wish to neuter the 1st cause, whose action as a bottleneck can be seen as socially suboptimal.

    I was thinking of Communism in theory - you know, the peaceful utopian state where everyone lives and works in harmony and equality? Yeah.
    Unfortunately (I say so because I would enjoy that type of society) the model of communism has a fatal theoretical flaw, that is, it's impossible to determine prices. This, in turn, makes it impossible to determine quantity demanded and the optimal quantity to produce; the economy is unable to self-regulate, and thus over-produces some unnecessary goods and under-produces some necessary goods (this is testified by the long waiting columns of people, looking for bread, that were common every morning in the ex-sovietic nations).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #16
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    ^
    I hate to repeat myself, but here I go anyway: You don't have to convince me that Communism doesn't work. Just because I was referring to the ideal, doesn't mean that the ideal exists. I was kidding. My comments on "harmony", etc, were sarcastic. (This is why internet communication is so difficult - no tone of voice or anything!)

    So I guess I should give a more serious answer: If you're going to live in the "industrialized world", the issue in the OP is a fact of life. I suppose that if you were unemployed/a house-spouse, and lived with someone wealthy and/or willing to take care of you financially, you wouldn't have to worry about being broke, because you wouldn't have money personally. But that's all I can think of.

    FDG's points are good.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #17
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Not only do the rich have more money to lose to the economy, but they also have things to protect themselves with that allow them to sit on their money too.
    Elaborate.

    Well, you can try go living somewhere natural resources are so naturally abudant that you can live off nature without working, where there are no threats so you can live without an home, and there are no illnesses so you can live without meds. I'm not being sarcastic - in this situation you wouldn't need any money, that is, you wouldn't need either your own work or the work of other people in order to live. Because money is (generally - let's leave bequest as an exception for now) a medium that represents compensation for work done, thus if there is no need for work, there is no (strict) need for money.
    Can you explain out society's overdependence on money and competition for money?
    Obviously, Capitalism is obviously not the best system around.

    How do you explain some work has economic value while some work does not? Everyday, we are using human power to do something.


    Quote Originally Posted by CEO Nwabudike Morgan
    Human Behavior is economic behavior
    This is a quote from a quote from alpha centauri which i do believe have much sense in today's capitalist world.

    I believe many people failed to get rich tday because they failed to understand how the capitalist system. works
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

  8. #18
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    How do you explain some work has economic value while some work does not? Everyday, we are using human power to do something.
    Simple. The same way everything else works. Supply vs. Demand...
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    Can you explain out society's overdependence on money and competition for money?
    Overdependence? Money is a medium of exchange. What improvements would you suggest?

    Obviously, Capitalism is obviously not the best system around.
    What is better?

    How do you explain some work has economic value while some work does not? Everyday, we are using human power to do something.
    Digging a hole and filling it back in is work. It's possible that it consumes the same number of joules of energy in a day as a farmer. Would you say what the hole digger is providing work of equal economic value to the farmer?

    I believe many people failed to get rich tday because they failed to understand how the world works
    Fixed.


    If you were a subsistence farmer, 5000 years ago, your situation would be no different. Every day you would have fewer resources unless you worked to increase your resources. That's life.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by untypable View Post
    E
    Can you explain out society's overdependence on money and competition for money?
    Money is an efficient medium of exchange (or, at least, the most efficient we have found so far). Thus, society depends on money because with it you can buy the goods needed to live. Again - not jokingly - if you can find enough natural resources to sustain yourself without other people's work, then you can live without money.

    Obviously, Capitalism is obviously not the best system around.
    It probably isn't, but it probably isn't the worst either.

    How do you explain some work has economic value while some work does not? Everyday, we are using human power to do something.
    You probably haven't read all my post, I explained why some work has economic value and some other not, it's a matter of scarcity.

    I believe many people failed to get rich tday because they failed to understand how the capitalist system. works
    First of all: being rich is defined in relative terms, so it's not possible for everybody to be rich. It's natural that some people are richer, some are poorer (although I personally think it'd be possible for povery not to exist - however, in relative terms somebody would likely always be poorer). Secondly, perhaps they haven't, but it's not that complicated; again, only a matter of supply and demand. In a capitalistic system like ours it's relatively easy not to starve, if you don't want a SUV and a plasma television.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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