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  1. #21
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anentropic IxTx View Post
    The fact that they were cast out of their land by the Zionist religious movement,...
    Here we find the point where bottomless ignorance and Anti-Semitic propaganda meet.

    The Zionist movement was not religious when it was founded, and Israel is one of the very few state in the world that has no official religion. A majority of Israeli citizens are agnostics or atheists.

    When Herzl founded the Zionist movement, he did not this because G.d ordered him to do so, but because of the Dreyfus affair. France was then considered to be the most tolerant and philosemitic nation in the world, and yet this affair revealed that even in Paris, anti-semitic feelings were still very deep, very strong.
    Herzl, who was a journalist in Paris, realized then that integration (= French model) may not have been the best way to protect the Jews, and sadly, history proved he was (at least partly) correct.

    Anyway. The vast bulk of the Jews that choose to settle in Israel did not so for religious reasons, but because they had no other choice left if they wanted to survive.

    ---

    So now we could ask, why Anentropic IxTx thought Israel was a religious state, a kind of theocracy (rather than the liberal democracy it really is)?

    1) Maybe he was fooled by the medias, that always focus on the religious settlers in Cisjordania (Those extremists makes only 1.2% of the Israeli population, and the majority of the Israeli citizens despise them).

    2) Maybe he was fooled by Arab propaganda, because for the Arabs and muslims as a whole, it's true the conflict is religious, and only religious.
    But for Israel, it's rather a question of political survival, it has nothing to do with religion.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-31-2008 at 08:36 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #22
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Here we find the point where bottomless ignorance and and Anti-Semitic propaganda meet.

    The Zionist movement was not religious when it was founded, and Israel is one of the very few state in the world that has no official religion. A majority of Israeli citizens are agnostics or atheists.

    When Herzl founded the Zionist movement, he did not this because G.d ordered him to do so,

    Anyway. The vast bulk of the Jews that choose to settle in Israel did not so for religious reasons, but because they had no other choice left if they wanted to survive.

    1) Maybe he was fooled by the medias,

    2) Maybe he was fooled by Arab propaganda,
    there is no other place on earth that would have been safer than palestine for jews to be safe? When did the bulk of the jews actually settle there?

    Who or what is "G.d?" Those initials are not ubiquitous.

    So lets leave religion out of this, as I think most try to. If israel is not a religious state, jsut what right did zionists have to occupy palestine 90 years ago?

  3. #23
    Sniffles
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    I seriously wonder how much of this conflict would have been avoided if Martin Buber's idea of a bi-national federation(Jewish and Arab) was taken more seriously.

  4. #24
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post

    Who or what is "G.d?" Those initials are not ubiquitous.
    God, I would think. Why he felt he needed to not type it, yet capitalize the G is beyond me.



  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    Who or what is "G.d?" Those initials are not ubiquitous.
    It's a Jewish thing, go figure, although they usually do it as G~d.

    From what I understand, it comes from the belief that God's name is holy, so holy mortal humans are not able to speak it. Or something along those lines.

  6. #26
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    It would be multi-national. Arab is a social/linguistic belonging, it isn't ethnic. Jews in the middle east used to refer to themselves as Arab Jews before the creation of Israel, just like today's Arab Christians, Arab Alawites, Arab Druzes, Arab Shiites, etc.

    But Jews decided to set themselves apart from the rest of the surrounding, display their ethnocentrism and create their own state.

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    It would be multi-national. Arab is a social/linguistic belonging, it isn't ethnic. Jews in the middle east used to refer to themselves as Arab Jews before the creation of Israel, just like today's Arab Christians, Arab Alawites, Arab Druzes, Arab Shiites, etc.

    But Jews decided to set themselves apart from the rest of the surrounding, display their ethnocentrism and create their own state.

  8. #28
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    It's a Jewish thing, go figure, although they usually do it as G-d.

    From what I understand, it comes from the belief that God's name is holy, so holy mortal humans are not allowed to speak it. Or something along those lines.
    Correct.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 12-29-2008 at 04:09 PM. Reason: edited for perfection
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  9. #29
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    A.K.A.

  10. #30
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Right, which you're not supposed to write like that unless you're praying. According to tradition.

    But back to your debate.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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