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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The Middle East needs to secularize and liberalize, like Turkey, which has shown it to be possible. And, very slowly, it seems to be happening.

    If you're a Muslim, and serious about your religion, I can see how Israel would be a big slap on the face.
    Islam is like virus RNA. Programming to spread and defeat other religions. It was very well written and effective, but it seems those who adhere to it with complete devotion are a fading minority.

  2. #262
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    Just like any other religion or extremist ideology. The poorer/more uneducated/more deprived the people, the more such ideologies would blossom.

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    Just like any other religion or extremist ideology. The poorer/uneducated/deprived the people, the more such ideologies would blossom.
    The latter is true, but it's not just like any other religion. It was designed more with a purpose in mind.

  4. #264
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    Bad, bad example.
    Is there a better one out there? Turkey seems to be the furthest ahead, out of the M.E., in this respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    The latter is true, but it's not just like any other religion. It was designed more with a purpose in mind.
    You could argue Christianity wasn't designed with a purpose in mind -I agree- but Catholicism is for example.

  6. #266
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    What I meant is that it's too easy to blame the leaders. The leaders practically always represent their people well.

    If a leader is stupid, immature or 'evil' and tyrannic, they're simply the image or the consequence of the people they represent/rule.
    I don't completely agree, but I think what you're saying has some truth in it. While it's true that people pick leaders who reflect their values, they are often forced to pick the lesser of two evils. Second, politicians are snakey. What they do and say to get elected isn't always how they actually perform. Third, if a wise leader emerged, who knows what would happened. Einstein was asked to lead Israel (but declined). Fourth, by your logic, you yourself are immature, evil, and tyrannic. Your argument overlooks the fact that leaders are almost never elected unanimously.

  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Is there a better one out there? Turkey seems to be the furthest ahead, out of the M.E., in this respect.
    You can't be worse than Turkey. Try researching how it reached this pseudo-secularism with the Turkish Hitler: Ataturk.

  8. #268
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    You can't be worse than Turkey. Try researching how it reached this pseudo-secularism with the Turkish Hitler: Ataturk.
    The point is that they are further along then their Middle East neighbors.

  9. #269
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    You can't be worse than Turkey. Try researching how it reached this pseudo-secularism with the Turkish Hitler: Ataturk.
    Come, come Nihilen. Ataturk compared to Hitler.

    Don't get all emotional, now.:steam:

    In Russian the words great & terrible are interchangable (- "Groznyy").

    I think this sums up alot of high achievers in politico-military circles. You can't be great without occassionally being a bit terrible.

    Perhaps his legacy, as you say, leaves something to be desired.

    You gotta admire a man that could drink like Ataturk.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The point is that they are further along then their Middle East neighbors.
    They are not. Turkey is not a secular regime, it's a nationalistic regime, with Islam re-gaining ground by the second. This change came from a dictator, not from the people.

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