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  1. #211
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Here being the U.S.?
    You apparently didn't read the top half of my post where it says "I'm talking about the USA here" ?

    Your mistaken. It is far more in support of Gaza. The U.S. sides with Israel for the reasons you mentioned, and more. However, U.S. support doesn't equate opinion of the masses. General public opinion of Israel, is very negative.
    Well. I, um...happen to live here, and can't find a emoticon thing to find just how wrong I think you are. Outside of colleges/maybe a few small areas? (I've never seen any)....popular opinion is VERY far on the Israeli side. We all hate those damn terrorist nutcases. (Note, that's not my opinion, but that's literally what I've heard before.). Want proof that I'm right? Wear a turban, or anything with arabic on it, and see how you're treated. Better yet, add a nice sized beard to this. Then, after you're done with being treated like shit, and pulled aside for "extra screening" at any type of security checkpoint (like at an airport), go dress up like a hasidic jew , and notice that while you still get some funny looks (you do look funny, obviously), you'll get far less harassment and no security problems or suspicion directed toward you.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    You apparently didn't read the top half of my post where it says "I'm talking about the USA here" ?

    Well. I, um...happen to live here, and can't find a emoticon thing to find just how wrong I think you are. Outside of colleges/maybe a few small areas? (I've never seen any)....popular opinion is VERY far on the Israeli side. We all hate those damn terrorist nutcases. (Note, that's not my opinion, but that's literally what I've heard before.). Want proof that I'm right? Wear a turban, or anything with arabic on it, and see how you're treated. Better yet, add a nice sized beard to this. Then, after you're done with being treated like shit, and pulled aside for "extra screening" at any type of security checkpoint (like at an airport), go dress up like a hasidic jew , and notice that while you still get some funny looks (you do look funny, obviously), you'll get far less harassment and no security problems or suspicion directed toward you.

    Have you seen CNN coverage over the last 2 weeks? It's bent pro-Gaza. When people in Israel are killed or suffer damage, that receives an article. When people in Gaza are killed, that receives a huge flashing banner of the number dead and continued media coverage in every form. The pictures of Gaza death and destruction were plastered all over the place. Listen to newscasts online, they are very much on the side of Gaza.

    Of course, Arabs and Muslims are feared and disliked. The U.S. has been at war with them for years, and still is. When in war, Homeland Security dictates any possible related people are to be checked at neccessary points like airports. You make it sound as if that's being done solely for being disliked. It's standard procedure. Just because the U.S. is at war with Iraq, does not by proxy, mean the feelings associated with it are being projected onto the Palestinians. And why should it, when it's two separate situations? Whether you like it or not, the Palestinians are receiving sympathy on a grand scale.

    I have quite a few Jewish friends and acquaintances. One of my friends had her car defaced in the parking lot, while she was at work. At an upstanding law firm by the way. Another had her apartment door egged. In fact, none of my Jewish friends are as extreme as the Hasidic, and they've been harassed on an almost daily basis since this began. If you really think Hasidic aren't even outsiders within their own Jewish community, much less the general population, then you don't have extensive knowledge on the subject. Hasidic aren't facing security issues, because the U.S. isn't at war with Israel. That is why they are generally left alone at airports. It has nothing to do with whether or not Americans like them. Jews face discrimination. That's been going on long before Israel and Gaza's current situation. While the U.S. supports Israel, that doesn't make opinion of Jews as a majority, rainbows and sunshine. Anti-semites were around long before this ordeal, and they will be long after. Especially considering the majority views what's going on in Gaza as slaughter. That's breeding new generations of anti-semites of all ages, in the United States and abroad.

  3. #213
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    But what's happening in Gaza is in fact a slaughter. As if stating what's obvious makes us anti-Semitic.

    Both are getting coverage, but it's only logical that the systematic annihilation of whole cities would get more media coverage than the the shelling of a couple houses.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    But what's happening in Gaza is in fact a slaughter. As if stating what's obvious makes us anti-Semitic.

    Both are getting coverage, but it's only logical that the systematic annihilation of whole cities would get more media coverage than the the shelling of a couple houses.
    I never stated it wasn't slaughter. I was only pointing out the supposed support of Jews isn't the idealistic fantasy, the poster I responded to thinks it is. Nor has it ever been, in the history of the U.S. The dislike of the situation in Gaza doesn't equate anti-semitism. However, that doesn't negate it is still happening among individuals regardless.

    It makes sense Gaza is getting more coverage, but that doesn't mean CNN isn't pro-Gaza. There are many issues not being discussed on Israel's side. Like how Hamas has admitted and been caught on video using Palestinians as human shields. Or the fact that anti-semitism and violence are weaved into children's shows. Or that children are taught to believe it's an honor to commit Jihad against Jews. Hamas has been caught on video, not only shooting bombs from schools with witnesses, but also doing it with children everywhere. The attempts by Israel to explain what is going on from their side, has been patronized on CNN.


    CNN has a history of this.

    CNN Chief News Executive Eason Jordan said his news network had made "inexcusable mistakes," and had presented "incorrect perceptions" of the Middle East conflict, but denied that it was biased against either Israel or the Palestinians in its coverage. After CNN founder Ted Turner equated Israeli military actions with suicide bombers, the company dispatched Jordan to Israel as part of a damage-control mission.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I never stated it wasn't slaughter. I was only pointing out the supposed support of Jews isn't the idealistic fantasy, the poster I responded to thinks it is. Nor has it ever been, in the history of the U.S. The dislike of the situation in Gaza doesn't equate anti-semitism. However, that doesn't negate it is still happening among individuals regardless.

    It makes sense Gaza is getting more coverage, but that doesn't mean CNN isn't pro-Gaza. There are many issues not being discussed on Israel's side. Like how Hamas has admitted and been caught on video using Palestinians as human shields. Or the fact that anti-semitism and violence are weaved into children's shows. Or that children are taught to believe it's an honor to commit Jihad against Jews. Hamas has been caught on video, not only shooting bombs from schools with witnesses, but also doing it with children everywhere. The attempts by Israel to explain what is going on from their side, has been patronized on CNN.


    CNN has a history of this.
    I see what you're saying, and I have seen many of those videos of Hamas indoctrinating children on violence. But I have seen the same from the Israeli side. And CNN didn't tackle it either:






  6. #216
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    It's obvious the same thing isn't happening. I think these pictures are being portrayed out of context. Most little boys learn how to shoot guns. That doesn't mean they are being taught how to fight in the way children of Gaza are. I'm not saying prejudice isn't instilled from both sides at an early age, but that doesn't negate that Gaza is a terrorist organization that has no issue utilizing every one of their citizens, while Israel leaves it's dirty work for their army. Hamas has openly stated they use women, children, and elderly as human shields. They have been caught on video doing it as well. Shooting with all the children around them, so Israel doesn't fire at them. Shooting bombs from school yards, with children running around all over the place. They teach their children to die for the cause. That it's noble. You rarely, if ever, see that happen with Israeli children.

    Hamas is the problem, not the Palestinian civilians.

    Regarding the news, it's not just the specific subject of children in Gaza. It's everything. CNN has a long history of grossly biased coverage. Stemming way back into the 90's.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It's obvious the same thing isn't happening. I think these pictures are being portrayed out of context. Most little boys learn how to shoot guns. That doesn't mean they are being taught how to fight in the way children of Gaza are. I'm not saying prejudice isn't instilled from both sides at an early age, but that doesn't negate that Gaza is a terrorist organization that has no issue utilizing every one of their citizens, while Israel leaves it's dirty work for their army. Hamas has openly stated they use women, children, and elderly as human shields. They have been caught on video doing it as well. Shooting with all the children around them, so Israel doesn't fire at them. Shooting bombs from school yards, with children running around all over the place. They teach their children to die for the cause. That it's noble. You rarely, if ever, see that happen with Israeli children.

    Hamas is the problem.

    Regarding the news, it's not just the specific subject of children in Gaza. It's everything. CNN has a long history of grossly biased coverage. Stemming way back into the 90's.
    Well, both sides view CNN as biased.

    What I don't understand is how you can look at this conflict without examining the sociological, the psychological, the political, the historical causes and effects that lead to this.
    The way westerners talk about it sounds like simplistic Bushism, as if it only exists in the present, with the self-proclaimed good guys V/s the bad guys.

    No, Israel is the problem. Israel's vindictive policies created Hamas. And now they have no idea how to deal with their creation.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    Well, both sides view CNN as biased.

    What I don't understand is how you can look at this conflict without examining the sociological, the psychological, the political, the historical causes and effects that lead to this.
    The way westerners talk about it sounds like simplistic Bushism, as if it only exists in the present, with the self-proclaimed good guys V/s the bad guys.

    No, Israel is the problem. Israel's vindictive policies created Hamas. And now they have no idea how to deal with their creation.
    Whether both sides view it that way or not, it's only been proven that CNN is against Israel.

    I am in no way stating that Israel is innocent. I understand the Palestinian civilians are the by product of truly unfortunate circumstances. However, they still have to take responsibility for electing Hamas. Hamas types have always existed in the Middle East. Israel didn't need to do anything to bring them into fruition.

    It's true the Haredi and Hasidic sects are the ones with power in Israel. They're unyielding and extremely orthodox. The majority of Israeli civilians do not want them in power.

    Keep in mind though, there were vast sums of money sent to Gaza. Israel still provides 3/4s of the electricity for Gaza because Hamas refused to build them their own plant. Hong Kong is just as populated as the Gaza strip, and yet economically they hold their own. Hamas denied it's people the funding meant to help make their situation better.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Whether both sides view it that way or not, it's only been proven that CNN is against Israel.

    I am in no way stating that Israel is innocent. I understand the Palestinian civilians are the by product of truly unfortunate circumstances. However, they still have to take responsibility for electing Hamas. Hamas types have always existed in the Middle East. Israel didn't need to do anything to bring them into fruition.

    It's true the Haredi and Hasidic sects are the ones with power in Israel. They're unyielding and extremely orthodox. The majority of Israeli civilians do not want them in power.

    Keep in mind though, there were vast sums of money sent to Gaza. Israel still provides 3/4s of the electricity for Gaza because Hamas refused to build them their own plant. Hong Kong is just as populated as the Gaza strip, and yet economically they hold their own. Hamas denied it's people the funding meant to help make their situation better.
    No Hamas type did not always exist in the middle-east. And as I already stated, Israel's vindictive, bigoted, inhumane policies lead to the creation of such counter-movements.

    Did you read the article I posted in the previous page ? I'll post it again:

    An Unnecessary War

    By Jimmy Carter
    Thursday, January 8, 2009; A15



    I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.

    After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.

    Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.

    We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

    Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.

    After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.

    Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).

    We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

    On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.

    After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.

    The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

    The writer was president from 1977 to 1981. He founded the Carter Center, a nongovernmental organization advancing peace and health worldwide, in 1982.
    Do you know about the blockade ? and do you know what a blockade means ? How can you compare Gaza to Hong Kong while the people in Gaza are being literally starved to death by Israel ?

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    No Hamas type did not always exist in the middle-east. And as I already stated, Israel's vindictive, bigoted, inhumane policies lead to the creation of such counter-movements.

    Did you read the article I posted in the previous page ? I'll post it again:

    Do you know about the blockade ? and do you know what a blockade means ? How can you compare Gaza to Hong Kong while the people in Gaza are being literally starved to death by Israel ?
    Yes, Nihilen. They have.

    Palestinians are pawns of the greater Arab world.

    Neither Jordan nor the surrounding Arab nations have forgotten the militant factions of the Palestinians were given a home and aid by the Jordanians. In the early 1970's, they turned on King Hussein and were forced out of Jordan in a bloody war that killed many thousands of Palestinians and Jordanians, including the non-militant Palestinians that comprise the majority of Jordan's population.

    It seems wherever militant Palestinians go, they cause trouble and that fact isn't lost on the Arab world, that prefers that trouble be singularly focused on Israel.
    I understand the blockade. I did state the ultra orthodox rulers of Israel didn't handle the situation in the most just manner. Nonetheless, Hamas was given large amounts of financial help to revive Gaza. They didn't buy their people food or anything else they would have needed. The way Hamas proceeded with the funds, leads me to believe their goal was never to help the Palestinian people.

    While Israel wasn't fair, Hamas is still mostly to blame.

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