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  1. #171
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bufo View Post
    And who made the Middle east the earth's asshole?
    The fact that multiple religions were all founded in the same area, and that they all want to control the "holy land". They've been fighting over it...for, oh, about 1000+ years now?
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  2. #172
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I'm not going to take the time to track it down, but this week Charles Krauthammer (whattaname!) wrote in his column something to the effect that Hamas failed its own by not using its capital to build up a social system which supported life and instead immediately began to put it into arms when they were established in Gaza.

    My knowledge in this area is scarce. Would someone comment on that statement?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #173
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Sounds about right to me, little as I know about the situation. Hamas HAS seemed more interested in it's grudge match with Israel than in the social structure in Gaza. Yeah, they help with hospitals and such, to placate the masses, (which seems to work pretty well, so far) but they don't seem, to me, to be much interested in building ANYTHING as much as they're interested in tearing Israel down.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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  4. #174
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    I just hope this isn't used to cook up a war between US and Iran. Seems like US goes to war in the middle east in springtime. Plenty of time to stoke things up.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    That traitor is wrong.

    Want to see what brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe?

    People like this:

    FOXNews.com - Protester Calls for Jews to 'Go Back to the Oven' at Anti-Israel Demonstration - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

    YouTube - Hamas Mickey Mouse Teaches Terror to Kids

    YouTube - Extended Version: Hamas 'Mickey Mouse' Killed by 'Terrorist'

    Those little "innocent" Palestinian children you see?

    Most are already indoctrinated.

    This is a real life Trolley problem, people. And Islam is the fat guy that you have to drop on the tracks to stop the out of control Trolley, which holds the rest of the world on it.

    Make the obvious decision please.
    Is he wrong about the history? How is he wrong on any point?

    Your attack on him as a "traitor" and repeat of the Israeli propoganda does not serve any point. Avi Shlaim is a highly respected historian with personal experience in the IDF. That he should deviate from the traditional Israeli reading of the situation makes his opinion more significant.

    I see his view as being reasonable, well-considered and (above all) fair.

  6. #176
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/op...html?th&emc=th
    At a time when Israel is bombing Gaza to try to smash Hamas, it’s worth remembering that Israel itself helped nurture Hamas. When Hamas was founded in 1987, Israel was mostly concerned with Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement and figured that a religious Palestinian organization would help undermine Fatah. Israel calculated that all those Muslim fundamentalists would spend their time praying in the mosques, so it cracked down on Fatah and allowed Hamas to rise as a counterforce.

    What we’re seeing in the Middle East is the Boomerang Syndrome. Arab terrorism built support for right-wing Israeli politicians, who took harsh actions against Palestinians, who responded with more terrorism, and so on. Extremists on each side sustain the other, and the excessive Israeli ground assault in Gaza is likely to create more terrorists in the long run.

    If this pattern continues, we may eventually see Hamas-style Palestinians facing off against hard-line Israelis, with each side making the others’ lives wretched — and political moderates in the Middle East politically eviscerated.

    I visited Gaza last summer and found many Palestinians ambivalent in a way that Americans and Israelis often don’t appreciate. Many Gazans scorn Fatah as corrupt and incompetent, and they dislike Hamas’s overzealousness and repression. But when they are suffering and humiliated, they find it emotionally satisfying to see Hamas fighting back.

    Granted, Israel was profoundly provoked in this case. Israel sought an extension of its cease-fire with Hamas, and Egypt offered to mediate one — but Hamas refused. When it is shelled by its neighbor, Israel has to do something.

    But Israel’s right to do something doesn’t mean it has the right to do anything. Since the shelling from Gaza started in 2001, 20 Israeli civilians have been killed by rockets or mortars, according to a tabulation by Israeli human rights groups. That doesn’t justify an all-out ground invasion that has killed more than 660 people (it’s difficult to know how many are militants and how many are civilians).

    So what could Israel have reasonably done? Bombing the tunnels through which Gazans smuggle weapons would have been a proportionate response, if Israel had stopped there, and the same is true of airstrikes on certain Hamas targets. An even better approach would have been to ease the siege in Gaza, perhaps creating an environment in which Hamas would have extended the cease-fire. It was certainly worth trying — and almost anything would be better than lashing out in a way that would create more boomerangs.

    “This policy is not strengthening Israel,” notes Sari Bashi, the executive director of Gisha, an Israeli human rights group that works on Gaza issues. “The trauma that 1.5 million people have been undergoing in Gaza is going to have long-term effects for our ability to live together.

    “My colleague in Gaza works for an Israeli organization. She’s learning Hebrew, and she’s just the kind of person we can build a future with. And her 6-year-old nephew, every time a bomb drops from the air, is at first scared and then says — hopefully — maybe the Qassam Brigades will now fire rockets at the Israelis.”

    Israel’s strategy has been to make ordinary Palestinians suffer in hopes of creating ill will toward Hamas. That’s why, beginning in 2007, Israel cut back fuel shipments for Gaza utilities — and why today, in the aftermath of the bombings, 800,000 Gaza residents lack running water, Ms. Bashi said.

    “The Israeli policy on Gaza has been marketed as a policy against Hamas, but in reality it’s a policy against a million-and-a-half people in Gaza,” she said.

    We all know that the most plausible solution to the Middle East mess is a two-state solution along the lines that former President Bill Clinton has proposed. It’s difficult to tell how we get there from here, but a crucial step is to strengthen President Mahmoud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority.

    Instead, initial reports are that the assault on Gaza is focusing Arab anger on Mr. Abbas and moderate neighbors like Jordan, undermining the peacemakers.

    My courageous Times colleague in Gaza, Taghreed el-Khodary, quoted a 37-year-old father weeping over the corpse of his 11-year-old daughter: “From now on, I am Hamas. I choose resistance.”

    Barack Obama has said relatively little about Gaza. At first, given the provocations by Hamas, that was understandable. But as the ground invasion costs more lives, he needs to join European leaders in calling for a new cease-fire on all sides — and after he assumes the presidency, he must provide real leadership that the world craves.

    Aaron David Miller, a longtime Middle East peace negotiator for the United States, suggests in his excellent new book, “The Much Too Promised Land,” that presidents should offer Israel “love, but tough love.”

    So, Mr. Obama, find your voice. Fall in tough love with Israel.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  7. #177
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    [youtube=3wPOfi_iFnI]Who broke the ceasefire?[/youtube]
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  8. #178
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    A Primer On Palestine

    This set of maps accurately shows the incremental shrinking of Arab Palestine. The green areas in the 2000 map at the right are what Israel offered during the Oslo peace process in the 1990s. This was Israeli PM Barak's "generous offer."
    As you can see, the Palestinian state would have amounted to isolated enclaves, all surrounded by Israeli highways, checkpoints and barbed wire. No Arab leader worth his salt could have accepted such an offer.

    The fact that this offer was presented to the largely uninformed American public as a fair and just proposal is disgraceful, and shows the mendacity of our own leaders and the pro Zionist media here in the US.

    UN Security Council resolution 242 would require Israel to return to the 1967 lines in the third map – still a vastly shrunken Arab Palestine.

    In 1947 the UN awarded Israel more than 50% of the land even though Jews were a minority. At that time no one bothered to consult the Palestinians. By 1949 -- after the 1948 war -- the Zionists had pushed the lines back even further.
    These maps afford insight into the great injustice that continues in Palestine. No wonder these maps almost never appear in the US media. They tell an inconvenient truth, one that must be kept from the American people.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

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  9. #179
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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  10. #180
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Is he wrong about the history? How is he wrong on any point?
    For starters, it was the Arabs who refused to negotiate with Israel on the basis of the 1967 borders after the war that year. When Egypt agreed to do so a decade later (and in doing so first recieved all of its land back), they were otracized and denounced by the Arab League. With the exception of Jerusalem, there was almost no Israeli settement of the West Bank until the latter half of the seventies, and the Arabs flatly refused to even enter into negotiations.

    There's a lot more where the author of the article misrepresents history, I don't particularly feel like wriing yet another paper on this subject, though. Incidentally, widespread use of suggestive language hardly represents a "fair" portrayal.

    To Kendowain: the map on the far right represents the territory that was (for the most part) already under Palestinian control; the final offer constituted approximately 95% of the pre-1967 land, as well as a land exchange that would have increased that number to about 98% of the pre-1967 land. Look for maps contained in the website of the Foundation for Middle-East Peace (a pro-Palestinian site) and look for maps portraying the territorial dimensions of the Taba talks, immediatly before the outbreak of the Second Intifada in 2001.

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