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  1. #101
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Pretty convenient intellectually dishonest to ignore the situation that lead to all of the contemporary circumstances you refer to. Kinda like saying it doesn't matter if God created the universe, or if the Big Bang theory is fact, we're here and that's all that matters now.
    Please stop arguing. Both sides have legitimate claims on that territory, and that's the tragedy of this story. If that was so simple, this conflict would have already been solved since decades, or even centuries.

    Besides, you're not here to decide what the Jews or the Palestinians should think, that's a childish and uninteresting display of arrogance. If the vast majority of the Jews (even secular ones) think they have a legitimate claim here, you should wonder why and take this fact into account (and understand it, if possible), rather than try to negate it.

    I'm not here to teach you history, but I think you have MUCH to learn.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #102
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Please stop arguing. Both sides have legitimate claims on that territory, and that's the tragedy of this story. If that was so simple, this conflict would have been solved for decades, or even centuries.

    Besides, you're not here to decide what the Jews or the Palestinians should think, that's a childish and uninteresting display of arrogance. If the vast majority of the Jews (even secular ones) think they have a legitimate claim here, you should wonder why and take this fact into account (and understand it, if possible), rather than try to negate it.

    I'm not here to teach you history, but I think you have MUCH to learn.
    Nothing you've said discounts the below statement... So all I'm reading in the above statement is, "blah blah blah, I think I'm smarter than you and I know more than you do about the situation so I don't have to site any facts or examples, blah blah blah..." But I repeat no one in this thread, and nothing in the historical record that I'm aware of discounts the statement below...

    Edit: Oh and FYI if you're going to quote me use my entire quote, because you conveniently left out the part where I said I accept that Israel exists and isn't going anywhere (gotta respect force of arms after all ) which leads to even more blah blah blah on your part.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ashkenazim whose grandparents were born in Prague and Budapest and Paris and Danzig are one with Palestinians of Assyrian stock whose ancestors were born in communities within a hundred miles of Jerusalem for the last twenty generations?

    Unless you mean "one people" in some rhetorical sense, I cannot follow this assertion. You will have to connect the dots for me, I'm afraid.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Please stop arguing. Both sides have legitimate claims on that territory, and that's the tragedy of this story. If that was so simple, this conflict would have been solved for decades, or even centuries.

    Besides, you're not here to decide what the Jews or the Palestinians should think, that's a childish and uninteresting display of arrogance. If the vast majority of the Jews (even secular ones) think they have a legitimate claim here, you should wonder why and take this fact into account (and understand it, if possible), rather than try to negate it.

    I'm not here to teach you history, but I think you have MUCH to learn.
    The question is: does it matter? The Native Americans had claim to 95% of America originally. And we all know that's a huge deal today.

    Even if the situation were reversed, with Israel having less land and the Palestinians having the majority of it, the Palestinian territories have received more foreign aid than Israel has, and they've spent it on rockets and suicide vests and propaganda programming that uses Disney characters to indoctrinate jihad in children.

    The question is what kind of people we want inhabiting the middle east, and what kinds of people we don't want there.

    And honestly, who among us wants fanatical muslims that want to kill everyone else because they don't believe in the same invisible man inhabiting any spot on Earth?

    Why all the Palestinian sympathy? Because they're human too?

    What's the big deal about that? It's not like our hearts bleed for every impoverished man woman and child out there. If you want to make a donation to them, go ahead. Just don't impose your will on your nation's leaders.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  4. #104
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Pretty convenient intellectually dishonest to ignore the situation that lead to all of the contemporary circumstances you refer to. Kinda like saying it doesn't matter if God created the universe, or if the Big Bang theory is fact, we're here and that's all that matters now.

    Edit: I accept the fact that Israel now exists and isn't going anywhere (Barrel of a gun ). But the whole "poor Israel why do they hate them" bs doesn't fly with me either.
    Who's ignoring it? I'm merely stating that the dynamics at work in 1948 are not the same as the dynamics at work now. Convenient (toward what purpose?) or not, that's the simple truth. Also, its understandable why most Arabs in the region hate Israel (though its not so understandable why Israel receives more overall international condemnation than countries with much worse human rights records, barring the global prevalence of anti-semitism) but using legitimate past grievances to justify their actions since 1948 is the same as using the holocaust to justify establishing Israel at the expense of a third-party in the first place.

  5. #105
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Who's ignoring it? I'm merely stating that the dynamics at work in 1948 are not the same as the dynamics at work now. Convenient (toward what purpose?) or not, that's the simple truth. Also, its understandable why most Arabs in the region hate Israel (though its not so understandable why Israel receives more overall international condemnation than countries with much worse human rights records, barring the global prevalence of anti-semitism) but using legitimate past grievances to justify their actions since 1948 is the same as using the holocaust to justify establishing Israel at the expense of a third-party in the first place.
    Well then... We agree on that much at least...
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  6. #106
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ashkenazim whose grandparents were born in Prague and Budapest and Paris and Danzig are one with Palestinians of Assyrian stock whose ancestors were born in communities within a hundred miles of Jerusalem for the last twenty generations?
    That is untrue. Most modern palestinians came only quite recently, mostly during the 18th and 19th century mainly from Egypt or Arabia (Arafat was born in Cairo, for instance).

    The vast bulk of modern palestinians never had any ancestors "who were born in communities within a hundred miles of Jerusalem for the last twenty generations", since the entire population of the area was deported or wiped out several times during the last two millenias.

    The only people that can claim to be "native inhabitants" are the Samaritans, the Druzes, and some Christians and Sabras.

    So again, you should understand how complex this problem is.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-31-2008 at 08:40 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #107
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    That is untrue. Most modern palestinians came only quite recently, mostly during the 18th and 19th century mainly from Egypt or Arabia (Arafat was born in Cairo, for instance).

    The vast bulk of modern palestinians never had any ancestors "who were born in communities within a hundred miles of Jerusalem for the last twenty generations", since the entire population of the aree was deported or wiped out several times during the last two millenias.

    The only people that can claim to be "native inhabitants" are the Samaritans, the Druzes, and some Christians and Sabras.

    So again, you should understand how complex this problem is.
    Bernard Lewis argues it was not as a Palestinian nation that the Arabs of Ottoman Palestine objected to Zionists, since the very concept of such a nation was unknown to the Arabs of the area at the time and did not come into being until very much later. Even the concept of Arab nationalism in the Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire, "had not reached significant proportions before the outbreak of World War I."[28]

    Tamir Sorek, a sociologist, submits that, "Although a distinct Palestinian identity can be traced back at least to the middle of the nineteenth century (Kimmerling and Migdal 1993; Khalidi 1997b), or even to the seventeenth century (Gerber 1998), it was not until after World War I that a broad range of optional political affiliations became relevant for the Arabs of Palestine."
    Debatable and besides the point. Your argument as you now present it amounts to "Yeah they were there first, but they weren't there all that long so..." I think IlyaK1986's assessment is right on the money regarding your stance.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  8. #108
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    Debatable and besides the point. Your argument as you now present it amounts to "Yeah they were there first, but they weren't there all that long so..."
    No, I didn't say that. I only tried to show you how complex real history is, and how facts and legitimate claims are closely intertwined between Jews and Arabs. Both are right, and both lie.

    I did not asked you to choose a side. I only asked you to stay cautious and check the validity of every sterotypes you use, as if this conflict had such an obvious solution, it wouldn't have lasted so long.

    You should avoid simplicity and its corollary, demagogy.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #109
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No, I didn't say that. I only tried to show you how complex real history is, and how facts and legitimate claims are closely intertwined between Jews and Arabs.

    I did not asked you to choose a side. I only asked you to stay cautious and check the validity of every sterotypes you use, as if this conflict had such an obvious solution, it wouldn't have lasted so long.

    You should avoid simplicity and its corollary, demagogy.
    You seem to be making the mistake of assuming you know my stance. All I have said here is A: I see the Palestinian/non jewish Arab POV, B: Regardless of the history, Israel is there and has the fire power and U.S. backing to insure it's not going anywhere. C: I don't buy the whole Israel as the poor innocent victim routine.

    Reading comprehension lesson for the day: Stereotypes, simplicity, demagogy, and me assuming there is an easy answer to this... This is all your imagination at work
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  10. #110
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Why are you so awkward and defensive, Dga?

    1) Like Nihilen, you have absolutely no idea what Apartheid really was. Your comparison is an insult towards what the black people of South Africa really endured.

    2) Are you aware that 99% of the Jews in the world are zionists (I. e. they care about the existence of Israel, even if they don't necessarily want to immigrate here)?

    Like Jürgen Habermas explained, even if technically, there's a difference between Jews and Zionists, in the real world, there's almost none.

    Some people called you an antisemitic liar?

    Well, I'm not that suprised: To be very blunt, you showed many classic stereotypes used by ordinary antisemitic propaganda. Are you aware of that?
    You know, when you lie (like you did, several times), when you intentionally confuse or exaggerate facts, you cross the border between a normal polical discussion and Ideology.

    You can criticize Israel, no problem. But at least, try to use some accurate facts. If you invent them, then we should wonder why!

    Again, for the third times, don't talk about a subject you don't know a fucking thing!! That's as simple as that.
    Why do you feel the urge to talk about it nonetheless?
    You have not supported any of your accusations or statements with anything besides hyperbole, so i do not feel defensive at all.

    Show me some sort of evidence that 99 percent of jews care about israel or don't type it, as it is otherwise hyperbole. Searching google for "jews against israel" yields half a million hits in my german browser.

    I'll agree that the situation is not the same as south african apartheid (during the british mandate, it was much mroe similar, and israel still controls 95 percent fo the water of the area, despite supposed equal access), but this will be my last civil response. I don't remember insulting you in every reply.

    Why the aggression? None of the jewish friends of mine that left israel are aggresive. They had to serve in the army and left when they could. Have you served, or is it easier to lob hyperbole from abroad?

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