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  1. #111
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Oberon, all you're doing is confirming that the Jews did in fact exist 2000 years ago. We know that. I'm just not seeing the point.
    I was trying to provide some background to MacGuffin's posts, that's all. Nihilen was trying to say that there was no historical basis for a right of return, or so I thought. I may have been incorrect.

  2. #112
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I was trying to provide some background to MacGuffin's posts, that's all. Nihilen was trying to say that there was no historical basis for a right of return, or so I thought. I may have been incorrect.
    Well that's debatable. I was trying to say if you're using historical basis as an irrefutable right of return, you'd have to honor all cultures with historical presence rights of return. It's just not consistent. I just think it's a weak and flimsy argument. Who decides how far back you go, things like that.



  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Well that's debatable. I was trying to say if you're using historical basis as an irrefutable right of return, you'd have to honor all cultures with historical presence rights of return. It's just not consistent. I just think it's a weak and flimsy argument. Who decides how far back you go, things like that.
    While this is a reasonable statement, the Jews aren't going to give up their covenant with God. It's not going to happen. Period.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    While this is a reasonable statement, the Jews aren't going to give up their covenant with God. It's not going to happen. Period.
    The Palestinians probably aren't going to give up the fight for their lands that they want to return to.

    Both of these statements are massive generalisations of course.

  5. #115
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    While this is a reasonable statement, the Jews aren't going to give up their covenant with God. It's not going to happen. Period.
    And the Palestinians won't give up the land they lived in for a while. It's really just a lose/lose if neither side wants to compromise and try to coexist. Destroy the borders, grant equal rights to all, and Hamas really doesn't have a foothold among the people anymore, since the people have what they want now.



  6. #116
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Well that's debatable. I was trying to say if you're using historical basis as an irrefutable right of return, you'd have to honor all cultures with historical presence rights of return. It's just not consistent. I just think it's a weak and flimsy argument. Who decides how far back you go, things like that.
    Isn't that the same basis of the palestinian argument for their own return?

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    The Palestinians probably aren't going to give up the fight for their lands that they seem to want to return to.
    The fight will continue.

    As it has been, as it is now, and the future too.

  8. #118
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    So I ask you... if you're the average 30-something Pali guy living in a refugee camp in the west bank, and you face the choice of opening a nice little baklava shop in Amman or throwing your life away launching dinky little mortar rounds at Merkava tanks, what is it exactly that makes you choose the latter?

    I know what one answer is... it's that the choice of opening the shop in Amman is no choice at all, because the Jordanian border is closed to Palestinians... as is the Syrian border, and the Egyptian border if you could even get to it.

    And why is that?
    C'mon guys, doesn't anybody want to field this one?

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    C'mon guys, doesn't anybody want to field this one?
    Because of the British? Because of the UN? Because of human nature? Because of god? Because of some Palestinians? Because of some Israelis?

    Isn't the solution more important than the cause? The cause is just a long chain of everything afterall.

  10. #120
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Isn't that the same basis of the palestinian argument for their own return?
    The Palestinians were not conquered by the Jews. There wasn't a war fought for the land, it wasn't won, it wasn't purchased. The UN, from a certain point of view, dropped an ethnic group into an area, and said ethnic group declared themselves a sovereign state as if it was theirs to begin with.

    It would be like if the government kicked me out of my house and let the Indians live there because they said they could.



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