I think you should overcome your fear, and abandon stereotypical (repressed) answers.
Nobody is here to judge you.
So, what do you feel?
The fear/aggression drive is one of the most powerful and complex instinct we have inherited from our ancestors. Nobody is a saint, here. For instance, what do you think a surgeon feels when he holds a scalpel?
I'm going crazy with trying to figure out why an enTp cares about somebody's FEELINGS so much in the middle of a debate! :confused:
So am I reading this right that we've gone from sparring with the sublime and shot straight past to the ridiculous by trying to include statistics?
Statistics??? Come on... that's worse than logic for being able to prove anything.
Only someone who is totally ignorant of statistics could make such a statement. Read a little on the subject of statistics, think about it and then report back.
Also, if you understood the scientific method you would understand that no hypothesis is ever proven, rather, the investigator fails to disprove it. Science is about falsification of theory, not proof.
If the argument is that high gun ownership = high gun crime/large numbers of guns in a population = high gun crime, then Switzerland is a completely valid example of that not being true.
As is Israel and Canada etc. etc.
You know, you are just plain wrong on this point. It is completely legit and valid to use a fixed (for example, national) population, smaller than the entire population of the globe, to retrieve and analyse data. All sorts of studies, in all sorts of different fields, use compared national statistics to learn about - social trends, disease, etc. etc.
All I'm saying is, populations exist with high gun ownership and low gun crime. That is a fact, not an opinion, and repeating the word 'no' in the face of a fact isn't a very good argument.
Someone else mentioned areas in which concealed weapons are allowed, and the stats here do support that crime falls in these areas after concealed weapons laws are passed.
How is that a fallacy?
I'm glad you eventually acknowledge that you are not reasoning upon simple logic, but upon your beliefs.
"eventually"? Dude, I never once claimed I was using logic to prove guns are awesome. The reason I'm not is because I don't believe this is an issue that's going to be resolved only 'logically'. It's not 2+2=4. It involves human nature and human perceptions. Hard logic isn't necessarily the only tool with which to tackle this.
You, too, are reasoning on your beliefs, and you're being a lot more closed-minded about it than most here.
Your last-ditch defense is now to convince us it's a matter of national ideology, and I (partially) agree. But I should add it's also a matter of psychology, and human nature.
Not a last-ditch argument at all, nor do I think national ideology is the only factor (just as I don't think gun ownership levels are) - but it's one factor, and you can't discount it simply because it doesn't fit your argument.
So, what do you feel when you hold a gun?
You said you want to feel secure against the drunken thug who would enjoy to rape you, little woman?
And I'd be interested to know what everybody feels, and hope they answer the truth, if they dare. I would not be surprised if, in many cases, there are sex and frustration involved.
I've never held a handgun, I've only ever held hunting rifles, and I don't really feel anything holding them. I grew up surrounded by hunters and a hunting rifle was pretty much another accessory to hunt, along with binoculars and camo jackets etc. And, er, yes, yes I would like to feel secure against someone who intended to rape me. Is that a problem? Also, can you please refrain from mocking - the "little woman" stuff etc. - it doesn't help and it just makes you look like someone who is way too worked up to conduct a civil discussion.
This is a graph of homicide rates. No mention of gun ownership. What does this prove? It also says that Spain and the EU in general have higher homicide rates than Canada, and I am pretty damned sure our gun ownership rates are a lot higher than Spain's!
This is one example of fallacy. Or rather, complete self-denial (just like Kendoiwan showed).
What about that was a fallacy? It was a question, not a statement! And the part about gun ownership rates was true - that graph didn't include gun stats.
You've clearly already come to a conclusion on everyone who supports gun rights. If they're men, they're compensating for some lack of manhood. If they're women, they've got penis envy. They're all sexually aroused by the phallic nature of the glorious gun and harbour secret fantasies about mowing down crowds of people with an automatic weapon. If this is your conclusion, OK, that's fine - you're not interested in respecting different points of view, or taking them at face value rather than armchair psychoanalyzing them. You are arguing very emotionally, and your lack of interest in differing viewpoints is obvious.
I haven't disparaged you for being pro gun control. Most of the people I know are pro gun control (I'm Canadian and my crowd is academic - so yeah, not many pro gun types in that crowd) - if you want to respectfully explore the issue, I'm willing to do that. But stop patronizing people because they don't see the world from the same perspective you do, and stop throwing the 'logic' word around so sloppily.
"Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar
"please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker
@banana...that's true. Now that we've failed, that argument is irrelevant, no? Since there are well over 100 million guns in private hands, that pretty much would ensure an infinite black market for the foreseeable future, regardless of law.
Originally Posted by Blackmail!
What do you feel when you hold a gun?
Caution, and like I'm holding something that should be treated with respect. Same way when I'm holding a sword, using explosives (Yes, I have access to real ones.), or anything else with the potential to injure myself.
No, there is no macho/testosterone feeling that you seem to be thinking of, at least not with me. Possibly because I use dangerous things a lot, and well...either you respect them/treat them with caution, or you're going to get badly hurt at some point.
What fascinates you?
How it works. I like taking them apart, seeing how they work, examining the mechanisms and such. I also like target shooting, especially at extreme ranges. (To test my abilities).