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View Poll Results: Should civilians be permitted to own guns?

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  • NO! Guns are EVIL and serve no good purpose.

    21 15.67%
  • YES! Guns are USEFUL and are nice to have when you need them.

    79 58.96%
  • Maybe... I wouldn't own one, but I don't mind if you do.

    30 22.39%
  • What's a gun?

    4 2.99%
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  1. #381
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Therefore, I'd say the whole subject is not about logic, it's about the rush of adrenaline people have when they hold a gun, and the Freudian symbol that is pertaining to it. Are you at least aware of your own subjectivity, of our own inconscious drives?
    You're calling everything a fallacy, but I see one right here. I'm pro-gun ownership and I've never owned a gun and probably never will. It's not about adrenaline, it is about logic. I'm not the only individual who thinks this way.

    I find it amusing that you would say that what works in Switzerland wouldn't work in the US because that's one of the primary arguments that pro-universal health care people make...it works in Europe so it will work in the US. So which is it? Are social policies transferable or not? Or are only the social policies you support transferable?

    I'd also like to see this data that you claim supports your argument.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #382
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're calling everything a fallacy, but I see one right here. I'm pro-gun ownership and I've never owned a gun and probably never will. It's not about adrenaline, it is about logic. I'm not the only individual who thinks this way.
    Interesting. So, why do you think people should freely own guns?
    Do you have any new, wild and original argument, besides the common fallacies used so far by most gun proponents?

    This could be even more interesting. But I fear that your stance is not a logical one, but rather an ideological one.

    I find it amusing that you would say that what works in Switzerland wouldn't work in the US because that's one of the primary arguments that pro-universal health care people make...it works in Europe so it will work in the US. So which is it? Are social policies transferable or not? Or are only the social policies you support transferable?

    Again, this is a very interesting debate, but it's rather a political and sociological one.

    Anyway, you should notice that:

    (A)-Comparisons between Europe and Switzerland are not valid, because they are out of scale. When you say "what could work in Switzerland", it's like if you were saying "what could work in Vermont", and NOT "what could work in the US".
    On the other hand, you can infer that what could work for the large majority of the Western world (for instance universal health care) could work in the US as well. At least technically, and economically. (Politically, I'm not so sure-> see below)

    Pure logic.


    (B)-Again, what you are pointing out are ideological differences, when you ask if social policies are transferable or not. As a matter of fact, you can't force a social policy when it locally opposes dominant ideological values... I can only agree with you on this precise point, we have to remain pragmatic.

    I'd also like to see this data that you claim supports your argument.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...e_rate2004.svg
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #383
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    You seem to be trying to claim that the higher homicide rate is due to gun ownership. I completely disagree with that assumption of yours.

    We americans...have always been a more...violent people than you nice civilized europeans. Two reasons I can think of immediately are:

    1. Our stupid and poorly enforced drug laws, creating a large illicit drug ring/gangs. Which cause lots of inner-city violence.

    2. Very diverse population in certain areas (especially cities), which creates certain tensions in the community. (Not that it's a bad thing to have a diverse population...just it's an unfortunate side-effect.).

    #2, I think is much more the cause of that rate, because the more homogeneous areas, have a much, much lower homicide rate.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  4. #384
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    We americans...have always been a more...violent people than you nice civilized europeans.
    I'm not so sure. We had two world wars on our soil.

    Two reasons I can think of immediately are:

    1. Our stupid and poorly enforced drug laws, creating a large illicit drug ring/gangs. Which cause lots of inner-city violence.
    Possibly an aggravating factor.

    2. Very diverse population in certain areas (especially cities), which creates certain tensions in the community. (Not that it's a bad thing to have a diverse population...just it's an unfortunate side-effect.).

    #2, I think is much more the cause of that rate, because the more homogeneous areas, have a much, much lower homicide rate.
    It's more complex than that. In France, the population is far more diverse than what you think, since we were one the few immigrant countries of Europe (I. e. countries that attracted a lot of immigrants, thanks to their quality of life). The two-third of the current French population is very mixed, and has immediate foreign origins (Spanish, Italian, German, Polish, Portuguese, Arab, Berber, Asian, African... and so on), when you only look as "far" as our own grandparents.

    I'd say, the problem is not to have a diverse population, but to have diverse values and ideologies that are conflicting without a common guideline. That's not at all the same thing.
    The French political system focus on integration/assimilation (the aim is to reach a common ground, see Ernest Renan's definition of French nationalism), while in Anglo-Saxon countries (including the US), each community live rather separately from the others, hence the tensions and lack of understanding that frequently arise.

    In France, we promote the desire to live together, what we call in French "le Vivre-ensemble". Of course, it's not always successful (not at all), since some cultural values are indeed in complete contradiction with French society. But more or less, it can work most of the time. For instance, second-generation Asians are often 100% French, both in language and in culture. The same can be told with Jews, or with our own "Blacks" from the Caribbean Islands.
    While with Islamic cultures... let's say it's slightly more difficult. But again, it can be explained.

    Anyway, it's a completely different debate.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #385
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I'm not so sure. We had two world wars on our soil.
    I'm not so sure either, I would think seeing what war can do to the homeland and country and people you love would instill a deterrence towards violence. As Americans, when is the last time we fought a war here? Civil war? It was still cannon balls and pitchforks. World War I and II...it's different. If the destruction you had there was felt here, I don't think we'd be as permissive about violence.



  6. #386
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm not so sure either, I would think seeing what war can do to the homeland and country and people you love would instill a deterrence towards violence. As Americans, when is the last time we fought a war here? Civil war? It was still cannon balls and pitchforks. World War I and II...it's different. If the destruction you had there was felt here, I don't think we'd be as permissive about violence.
    Probably.

    Half of my family was killed during both conflicts. To have suffered so much paradoxically united the devastated European nations, so we could never endure that kind of armed violence once again.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #387
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I said "DataS gathered in Western countrieS". Don't play at this game, you can only lose.
    Of which Switzerland is one...

    If the argument is that high gun ownership = high gun crime/large numbers of guns in a population = high gun crime, then Switzerland is a completely valid example of that not being true. As is Israel and Canada etc. etc. What does population have to do with it? If the assertion is true, then surely a very small population with lots of guns or a very large population with lots of guns would have high gun crime rates? You pointed out come cultural and social differences between Switzerland and the US, so does this mean it *is* about more than simply the number of guns in a given population?

    Someone else mentioned areas in which concealed weapons are allowed, and the stats here do support that crime falls in these areas after concealed weapons laws are passed.

    Stop using the word 'fallacies' when it's clear some people aren't presenting hardline 'logical' arguments for (or against) guns. The fact that I believe in the right to defend myself isn't a fallacy, and it can't be, because it's not a logical claim in the first place. You can argue with me as to why you might think I'm wrong to believe in that right, but you can't just label it a fallacy and move on.

    ??? This is a graph of homicide rates. No mention of gun ownership. What does this prove? It also says that Spain and the EU in general have higher homicide rates than Canada, and I am pretty damned sure our gun ownership rates are a lot higher than Spain's!
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  8. #388
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Of which Switzerland is one...

    If the argument is that high gun ownership = high gun crime/large numbers of guns in a population = high gun crime, then Switzerland is a completely valid example of that not being true.
    No.

    As is Israel and Canada etc. etc.
    No.

    What does population have to do with it? If the assertion is true, then surely a very small population with lots of guns or a very large population with lots of guns would have high gun crime rates? You pointed out come cultural and social differences between Switzerland and the US, so does this mean it *is* about more than simply the number of guns in a given population?
    It shows that there are indeed a lot of factors involved, amongst them sociology, politics, ideology, and guns ratio. Some only work locally, some as a global trend. To confuse the two scales is to make a fallacy (indeed!).
    But as a matter of facts, the number of guns is the most stable and most correlated of these factors.

    Someone else mentioned areas in which concealed weapons are allowed, and the stats here do support that crime falls in these areas after concealed weapons laws are passed.
    Fallacy.

    Stop using the word 'fallacies' when it's clear some people aren't presenting hardline 'logical' arguments for (or against) guns.
    The fact that I believe in the right to defend myself isn't a fallacy, and it can't be, because it's not a logical claim in the first place.
    I'm glad you eventually acknowledge that you are not reasoning upon simple logic, but upon your beliefs.

    I used logical reasonings when some would-be gun proponents tried to convince us owning gun was the logical answer.

    ---

    Your last-ditch defense is now to convince us it's a matter of national ideology, and I (partially) agree. But I should add it's also a matter of psychology, and human nature.

    So, what do you feel when you hold a gun?
    You said you want to feel secure against the drunken thug who would enjoy to rape you, little woman?
    And I'd be interested to know what everybody feels, and hope they answer the truth, if they dare. I would not be surprised if, in many cases, there are sex and frustration involved.

    (Ti-Fe is a very sharp axis, you know. It's the ability to analyze what people feels, even their most hidden desires)

    You can argue with me as to why you might think I'm wrong to believe in that right, but you can't just label it a fallacy and move on.
    I label it a fallacy when indeed, you use fallacious, unsound or illogical claims.

    ??? This is a graph of homicide rates. No mention of gun ownership. What does this prove? It also says that Spain and the EU in general have higher homicide rates than Canada, and I am pretty damned sure our gun ownership rates are a lot higher than Spain's!
    This is one example of fallacy. Or rather, complete self-denial (just like Kendoiwan showed).
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail!
    Frankly, I think everything has already been said on this subject.
    Then please, say nothing.
    Therefore, I'd say the whole subject is not about logic, it's about the rush of adrenaline people have when they hold a gun, and the Freudian symbol that is pertaining to it. Are you at least aware of your own subjectivity, of our own inconscious drives?
    And this is logic? You've no more a rational basis than FemmeUrbane did, because if you didn't notice, you're now arguing the value of intent, while disregarding effects on the real world. It doesn't even matter that you're incredibly wrong, which is painfully true, because that's irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Two more fallacies. You can't generalize what is specific to Switzerland (a very, very small country), especially if it's going against the global trend. And these exceptions can be thoroughly explained thanks to specific cultural and sociological factors...
    ...I said "DataS gathered in Western countrieS". Don't play at this game, you can only lose.
    I would recommend, the next time you argue against a carefully constructed point, you choose your argument more carefully, because when it's proven incontrovertibly false, it doesn't do you any good...
    Go to Switzerland, and maybe you'll understand...
    ...And most people can tell when you're trying to backpedal.
    I think I've been sufficiently exposed to the effects of firearms to know how dangerous they are. Maybe a night spent in an emergency medical service, just after a large gunfight, could vaccinate you. Then maybe, when you'll hold a gun one more time, the feeling of disgust would be too overwhelming compared to the exhilarating sensation of power.
    This is common, and regrettable. Medical personnel are almost always opposed to all kinds of potentially dangerous objects and activities, such as motorcycling, because you only see people when their situations are dire,and surprise!--Potentially dangerous objects and activities are more often involved in bodily harm than pillows and rainbows. This gives you no right to take their freedom away from them, as if you were their mother.
    (Ti-Fe is a very sharp axis, you know. It's the ability to analyze what people feels, even their most hidden desires)
    You should read Jung's definitions again, then let us know if you still think that's true. (Fe is not related at all to deciphering the emotional states of others.)

    --

    And excellent work, everyone but Blackmail. Please continue!

  10. #390
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    I wonder why Jack Flak is so... involved in this...
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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