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View Poll Results: Should civilians be permitted to own guns?

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  • NO! Guns are EVIL and serve no good purpose.

    21 15.67%
  • YES! Guns are USEFUL and are nice to have when you need them.

    79 58.96%
  • Maybe... I wouldn't own one, but I don't mind if you do.

    30 22.39%
  • What's a gun?

    4 2.99%
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  1. #311
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Possibility #3: neither.
    Logically speaking... if not A, and not B... so maybe...
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  2. #312
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    FemmeUrbane can you please answer this question I posted:

    But some killing is morally justified and good. The hostage taker who is killing his hostages one by one. Hitler. The paranoid schizophrenic who wants to blow away his innocent family member because he believes they're trying to harm him.

    Do these situations impact on your argument, in your opinion? How can a thing that can be used for good OR evil be ... just evil?
    Please?
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  3. #313
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    But some killing is morally justified and good. The hostage taker who is killing his hostages one by one. Hitler. The paranoid schizophrenic who wants to blow away his innocent family member because he believes they're trying to harm him.
    We weren't meant for it, it seems. If we weren't meant for it, then that is the case. It doesn't matter what we "feel".

    Do these situations impact on your argument, in your opinion? How can a thing that can be used for good OR evil be ... just evil?

    EDIT: Arguments about what we're 'meant' to do are kind of out of the scope of the specific guns-are-evil discussion going on, no? How can anyone know what anyone, or anything is 'meant' to do?
    All we can do... is argue
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Logically speaking... if not A, and not B... so maybe...
    So, you admit that maybe you were incorrect by saying that guns are evil. Let's see if we can extend this to were incorrect. As a prize, you get to be correct from now on, when you say they aren't.

  5. #315
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    There is something that seems so wrong to me about an object whose purpose is taking life. The objective behind the gun is death, or at the very least SEVERE pain.

    It doesn't matter how it's used (the situations/scenarios)... the objective/purpose remains the same.

    This does not seem like a power that we, as humans, should have. It seems so unnatural to me.



    The idea of keeping guns "out of the wrong hands" seems a bit convoluted, too. So far, this has failed.
    This is your original argument in this thread, or at least the most concise one I could find. Nowhere in this argument do I see "intent of creation" and how that makes the gun evil. You are labeling a gun as evil because of it's intent of use right here, which I have proven is a false label, since you can kill as a good act.

    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Feelings are a psychological effect, but it is not the effect I was talking about. Nor is "psychological effect of killing" usually understood as feelings.

    Example: psychological effect of killing - Google Search . No one would argue that mental illness is just "feelings". That's absurd.

    It seems as if we were not meant to kill. An object that was created to kill [other men] is helping us accomplish a goal we were possibly not meant for. The psychological effects are still there, and can be detrimental - sometimes suicide. So perhaps, anything that helps us accomplish this task is not a good thing. Not a good thing can be understood as evil.
    I have shown you that the bolded statement is false, and not the case. I have natural mechanisms, hormones, and feelings that allow me to kill if that is the only way to end a conflict. Why aren't we meant to kill then? Because we feel bad afterwards? Then why does my body produce and have the mechanisms to kill in the first place? Killing in self-defense is a moral good, using this [your] argument.





    How does this tackle original intent of creation? It doesn't.
    How does this relate to idea that a gun's nature is evil if used for killing, when killing is not always evil? It doesn't. This is a new argument, which I'd be happy to argue once this argument is finished.



    Very good! You've made your own logical argument! It doesn't affect mine, but you have made your own logical argument. Mine still starts at the intention of the creation of the gun, yours starts somewhere else.
    Since your "Intent of creation" is an entirely new argument from your "intent of use" original stance, you'd think I'd need to restructure some things. Luckily, I don't! Since I have shown logically that the morality of the action depends on the action and not the object used, then in the creation of said object, the act of creation holds the moral value and not the created item. Even if it did have an evil nature, I have shown I can use the evil item for a moral good, which makes the nature of the tool completely irrelevant, thus, the tool cannot have any meaningful morality.


    Okay, let me frame my thinking (very simple philosophical method):

    Is killing bad?
    Reverse, enlarge, and see if it is good: If we all killed, it would be a good thing.
    Absurd, right?
    So the opposite is true: If we all didn't kill, it wouldn't be a bad thing.

    So, ~K=~B (not killing = not bad)
    Great! So watching my family get killed, tortured, or worse while I sit twiddling my thumbs is a good action. That goes against common sense, and if I may say so, that philosophy stinks.
    ALSO: Your argument concluded that a gun cannot be GOOD, either.
    That's fine, since that is what I believe. Guns don't hold any moral value.



  6. #316
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    This is not difficult.

    You didn't just state your opinion. You made claims that your opinion was based on logic, and these claims have been refuted.
    I've seen arguments that have other starting points. I haven't seen arguments that logically debunk mine.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  7. #317
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    So, you admit that maybe you were incorrect by saying that guns are evil. Let's see if we can extend this to were incorrect. As a prize, you get to be correct from now on, when you say they aren't.
    Calm down, Mr. Jack. Keep that Fi in!

    All I said that there is a possible third option.
    1. A
    2. B
    3. ~A, ~B
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  8. #318
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    So the actual discussion we're having is regarding what we're 'meant' to do? I won't argue about that because I don't believe I can know what human beings were 'meant' to do. I can have ideas and beliefs, but I can't *know*. How could I?
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  9. #319
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Brown...

    I think we were created for sex, omnivorous eating, certain emotional bonds, and whatever else can be biologically concluded easily.
    Biologically concluded easily?? Does that make sense to you? Really?

    I'll play... what's easier to determine than death?
    "Look I poke him in the eye with a stick and he don't blink"
    There you go, a biological conclusion which is very easy to settle on as a conclusive answer.

    Oh and if you're created just for creation then you are truly a virus.

    Let's face it, guns ARE good because they preempt the need for culling to keep the population down. Not everyone is dumb enough to join the lemming appreciation society.
    Hmm... I do think religion and marriage serve a purpose. We have a brain-need for religion... perhaps even a gene for it.
    You have a brain need and figure that other's do too. Some do not. I object to your assumption.


    Marriage is a social construct, for raising children. Children add to the population. Increase in population usually means that a society can "live long and prosper".
    So childless couples are wrong and hence evil?

    Catholic?
    (Just guessing)
    Balloons... um... amusement? Adding some sort of weird symbolism to celebrations? WHAT ARE THE NATURE OF BALLOONS!?!??!?
    Errm rubber... I think.
    How are these feelings, hun? Ne, yes. Ti/Te, why not? Fi, not so much.
    Feelings in the more generic sense of the word, not MBTI. As in personally held definitions based more in how much you value the thing in question rather than any logical conclusion.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #320
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    So the actual discussion we're having is regarding what we're 'meant' to do? I won't argue about that because I don't believe I can know what human beings were 'meant' to do. I can have ideas and beliefs, but I can't *know*. How could I?
    That is why we argue. We can only conclude, using various pieces of information...

    On the other hand... we know we were meant to do SOME THINGS. Eating... we have mouths. If we didn't eat, we'd die.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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