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View Poll Results: Should civilians be permitted to own guns?

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  • NO! Guns are EVIL and serve no good purpose.

    21 15.67%
  • YES! Guns are USEFUL and are nice to have when you need them.

    79 58.96%
  • Maybe... I wouldn't own one, but I don't mind if you do.

    30 22.39%
  • What's a gun?

    4 2.99%
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  1. #291
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    What was the original intent behind walking? What is the intent behind legs? Why does this feel like jeopardy?


    Then the whole is no longer cement...

    Make a point, please.


    I give up. This is hopeless.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post


    I give up. This is hopeless.
    I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    It really doesn't matter if I create the most perfect argument in the history of the Universe, because you've come to your conclusions using your Feeling function, which doesn't listen to rational arguments.
    Isn't it wonderful?

  3. #293
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Your argument centered upon the fact we have feelings that make us feel bad when we kill, and because of this killing is evil. Because of this, creating a tool designed to kill makes the tool evil in its nature.
    Feelings are a psychological effect, but it is not the effect I was talking about. Nor is "psychological effect of killing" usually understood as feelings.

    Example: psychological effect of killing - Google Search . No one would argue that mental illness is just "feelings". That's absurd.

    It seems as if we were not meant to kill. An object that was created to kill [other men] is helping us accomplish a goal we were possibly not meant for. The psychological effects are still there, and can be detrimental - sometimes suicide. So perhaps, anything that helps us accomplish this task is not a good thing. Not a good thing can be understood as evil.

    I Therefore, if the gun is used in a right moral way, it cannot be an evil thing
    How does this tackle original intent of creation? It doesn't.

    Okay, here we go. Above, I explained how killing can be a good act, and you've explained why it can be evil. So we have seen killing can be described as a good [good] or evil [bad] act. Now also, you ascertain guns are evil [All guns bad]. All of them.

    Now let's say the formula for determining the morality of an action aided by a tool is the tool+action=moral value of the act. So here we go.

    A+B=B for a killing in self defense while using a gun. This is a good act.

    A+C=C for killing as hatred while using a gun. This is an evil act.

    As you can see, the outcome of this formula is not dependent on the morality of the gun. It is dependent on the morality of action. If that is the case, the gun can have any morality it wants, or it can have no morality at all.

    If something is unclear I apologize, I wrote this in haste at work. Shhh...
    Very good! You've made your own logical argument! It doesn't affect mine, but you have made your own logical argument. Mine still starts at the intention of the creation of the gun, yours starts somewhere else.

    Okay, let me frame my thinking (very simple philosophical method):

    Is killing bad?
    Reverse, enlarge, and see if it is good: If we all killed, it would be a good thing.
    Absurd, right?
    So the opposite is true: If we all didn't kill, it wouldn't be a bad thing.

    So, ~K=~B (not killing = not bad)


    ALSO: Your argument concluded that a gun cannot be GOOD, either.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #294
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Kinda funny.
    Quit giggling... this mah serious face :steam:
    So what you're saying is that, in order for something to be good or evil, it must be sentient? Okay, I'll bite. So... a dog... sea polyp... caterpillar can be good or evil, solely because it is sentient?
    Why not?

    Do you consider that it's possible to be evil without having constructed some kind of measurement of such and also invoked the kind of situation where the subject ends up being considered "evil"?

    Do you believe that evil or goodness springs up from nothing?

    Do you believe that if those beings you spoke of were capable of constructing a system where good and evil are defined that they would not have some members of their race who are considered to be evil?

    I think that with very little imagination it's possible to see that dogs already do this. The pack leader will attempt to correct any dog considered to display unwanted tendencies. Is this not similar?

    Perhaps a dog which is unwelcome in any pack could be considered to be evil if aggressive?
    I wasn't arguing about whether or not people should have them. Never once entered my argument. But I do believe that we haven't exacted the science on who should/shouldn't have one - and that we never will.
    Name one decision which can be empirically validated to the degree where it is 100% and I think you'll get the nobel prize before breakfast. If not then we continue, no?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  5. #295
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Translucent polycrystalline alumina was invented by NASA to protect the infrared antennae of heat-seeking missile trackers. Today that material is used in invisible braces. NASA has come up with a lot of things that aren't being used as "originally intended".

    If a nuclear weapon was used to deflect an asteroid from hitting Earth, would that nuclear weapon still be "evil"? I'm assuming that you believe nuclear weapons are evil, since they were designed to kill.
    This is where the good part is! Thank you for bringing this up!

    The logic behind my argument is pretty solid. HOWEVER, one could use this to dissuade one from my argument. Awesome job!

    But guns are still made to kill/harm. That's what they still do. Their sole purpose. So... unless someone makes a gun (in the way that guns are still understood) that also... I dunno... cures cancer... this argument is not quite analogous...

    BUT IT IS AN EXCELLENT POINT! Thank you!

    It is the debate between intent and effect... some say intent... some say effect... With this argument, I choose intent. With this argument, you gentlemen prefer effect.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #296
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    ALSO: Your argument concluded that a gun cannot be GOOD, either.
    Though the thread's title is misleading, i believe their argument is that guns can't be good or evil because its just shaped metal.
    Useful and Good are different things.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  7. #297
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    It seems as if we were not meant to kill.
    Huh?

    Omnivore... hunter...social creature prone to territorial behaviour...

    Do dogs that fight not have the capacity to kill? Do you think they aim to just disgrace one another? If dominance cannot be achieved then the opposition must be eliminated... it's kind of a basic pattern of progression.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    The logic behind my argument is pretty solid.
    *becomes physically ill, dies*

    But guns are still made to kill/harm. That's what they still do. Their sole purpose. So... unless someone makes a gun (in the way that guns are still understood) that also... I dunno... cures cancer... this argument is not quite analogous...
    It's your narrow view of intent, and your black and white moral judgment which I, and I assume others here, take issue with.

    Guns are manufactured (intent) for, among other reasons, to help the police prevent vicious criminals from terrorizing the public. The guns become (result) not just a killing tool, but a deterrent.

    I doubt you would say this is an evil purpose.

    It is the debate between intent and effect... some say intent... some say effect... With this argument, I choose intent.
    Which is, in fact, idealistic and completely irrational, though you've denied that.

  9. #299
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Do you consider that it's possible to be evil without having constructed some kind of measurement of such and also invoked the kind of situation where the subject ends up being considered "evil"?
    Hm. Well, if we were not intended to do something, and then we do something that we were not intended to do, then this action doesn't fit with our intention (what we were made to do). This is perhaps not good. Apply this to different scenarios, and you would probably end up with varying degrees of "not good" - anywhere from "oh well" to "OMGSOEVIL!!!".

    Do you believe that evil or goodness springs up from nothing?

    Do you believe that if those beings you spoke of were capable of constructing a system where good and evil are defined that they would not have some members of their race who are considered to be evil?

    I think that with very little imagination it's possible to see that dogs already do this. The pack leader will attempt to correct any dog considered to display unwanted tendencies. Is this not similar?

    Perhaps a dog which is unwelcome in any pack could be considered to be evil if aggressive?
    I don't ascribe to sentient=can be morally good/evil. I was tossing this bone your way. I DO believe that there is ABSOLUTE good and evil, however.

    Either way, I guess you're saying that a gun is neither good nor evil, am I right?
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #300
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Which is, in fact, idealistic and completely irrational, though you've denied that.
    Choosing a place to start an argument - intent or effect - is just that: a choice. Choosing effect is also idealistic and completely irrational.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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