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View Poll Results: Should civilians be permitted to own guns?

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  • NO! Guns are EVIL and serve no good purpose.

    21 15.67%
  • YES! Guns are USEFUL and are nice to have when you need them.

    79 58.96%
  • Maybe... I wouldn't own one, but I don't mind if you do.

    30 22.39%
  • What's a gun?

    4 2.99%
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  1. #281
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Which kills more: guns or swimming pools?
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #282
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    So a gun, a few pounds of steel, shaped, has an inherent moral nature, is that correct?

    And this is a rational argument, is this also correct?

  3. #283
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    It is, however desire doesn't necessarily equate a need/imply nature. There is also the repercussion of this action to be taken into account.

    Just because one can attempt to do something, or even do it, doesn't mean we were MEANT to do it. It's not our purpose. We weren't meant to eat cement... maybe certain types of dirt... but not cement. We can try, and possibly eat some... but there might be complications thereafter.
    There's a repercussion for every action. Walking gradually wears down the cartilage in your knees. Are humans not "meant" to walk? We weren't "meant" to eat dairy products either (using your logic). But over time, humans have evolved the ability to digest lactose.

    Your view of the world is so...static? I'm not sure if that's the right word. I just keep seeing an externally defined purpose in your arguments. We're nothing but a collection of molecules, a collection of molecules that could evolve the ability to digest cement, given the right circumstances.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #284
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Your previous argument involved a PRESENT PERSON having a gun - and not the ORIGINAL INTENTION behind the creation of a gun (my argument).

    Okay, let's entertain this concept of maybe killing is not always evil. Why do you say that?
    Your argument centered upon the fact we have feelings that make us feel bad when we kill, and because of this killing is evil. Because of this, creating a tool designed to kill makes the tool evil in its nature.

    I have shown, using your "because we have feelings for something, it must be natural/right" that because I have feelings, hormones, mechanisms that better prepare me to be able to fight or kill effectively gives killing in certain situations a right moral value. Something that will enable me to kill in this right moral way is a gun. Therefore, if the gun is used in a right moral way, it cannot be an evil thing.

    Remember, this argument is within the framework of your own.

    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Okay, you're right. I haven't. But I will humor you, even though your argument is a bit more difficult.

    Can you state your argument in an equation form? Or at least, restate in entirety.
    Okay, here we go. Above, I explained how killing can be a good act, and you've explained why it can be evil. So we have seen killing can be described as a good [B] or evil [C] act. Now also, you ascertain guns are evil [A]. All of them.

    Now let's say the formula for determining the morality of an action aided by a tool is the tool+action=moral value of the act. So here we go.

    A+B=B for a killing in self defense while using a gun. This is a good act.

    A+C=C for killing as hatred while using a gun. This is an evil act.

    As you can see, the outcome of this formula is not dependent on the morality of the gun. It is dependent on the morality of action. If that is the case, the gun can have any morality it wants, or it can have no morality at all.

    If something is unclear I apologize, I wrote this in haste at work. Shhh...



  5. #285
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Good question. I'm using the old, Greek philosophical way of defining an object's nature: the intention behind the creation of the object (it's a bit removed from the original Greek, but it's the way that I understand it best).

    Like I said, some items are inherently good, bad, and neutral - it's the intention behind the creation.
    Thanks for the definition - it looks obvious that not everyone in this discussion is using the same one, which is necessarily going to muddy the waters. Also thanks for clearing up your argument - intention behind the creation. So, I don't think anyone is arguing that guns are inherently 'evil'.

    Can you restate your original argument or position? Was it that guns were created for the express purpose of killing and are therefore evil?

    My general position on guns is definitely more in line with the American/NRA (yes, I know they're not always the same) position on them. I also don't believe that all killing is evil. For an extreme example, I do not think it would have been an evil act for someone to have shot and killed Hitler in 1939 - in fact I think that would have been a morally 'good' thing. How about a hostage situation with a number of children taken hostage, 1 already killed by a hostage taker who has vowed to kill another every 15 mins - would it be good, evil or other to take this guy out before he has the chance to kill any more innocent victims?

    I'm really just trying to clarify, in my mind, what your position is.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  6. #286
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    Okay, so perhaps one original intention of a gun is self-defense. Is it possible that perhaps, there is another purpose? If guns were birthed from gun powder, a Chinese invention, let's try to get into the head of the inventor. What else?

    ORIGINAL INTENTION FOR CREATION OF GUNS
    1. Self-defense
    Translucent polycrystalline alumina was invented by NASA to protect the infrared antennae of heat-seeking missile trackers. Today that material is used in invisible braces. NASA has come up with a lot of things that aren't being used as "originally intended".

    If a nuclear weapon was used to deflect an asteroid from hitting Earth, would that nuclear weapon still be "evil"? I'm assuming that you believe nuclear weapons are evil, since they were designed to kill.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I have shown, using your "because we have feelings for something, it must be natural/right" that because I have feelings, hormones, mechanisms that better prepare me to be able to fight or kill effectively gives killing in certain situations a right moral value.
    Yes.

    To FU:

    Additionally, psychopaths find it perfectly natural to kill indiscriminately without remorse, and it feels proper to them.

    You can't even say it's irrational, but they are indeed playing by different rules than the vast majority of the populace.

    Now if a large number of people feeling the same way about something is what makes it right in your eyes, then wanting to win a war, and therefore wanting weapons to be used, those weapons often being guns, it is morally right, because you can't call that part of the population a minority when looking through the pages of history.

  8. #288
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    So a gun, a few pounds of steel, shaped, has an inherent moral nature, is that correct?

    And this is a rational argument, is this also correct?
    By this argument, a gun can't be good, either...

    (A purpose, an original intent has an inherent moral nature...)
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #289
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    There's a repercussion for every action. Walking gradually wears down the cartilage in your knees. Are humans not "meant" to walk? We weren't "meant" to eat dairy products either (using your logic). But over time, humans have evolved the ability to digest lactose.
    What was the original intent behind walking? What is the intent behind legs? Why does this feel like jeopardy?

    Your view of the world is so...static? I'm not sure if that's the right word. I just keep seeing an externally defined purpose in your arguments. We're nothing but a collection of molecules, a collection of molecules that could evolve the ability to digest cement, given the right circumstances.
    Then the whole is no longer cement...

    Make a point, please.
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #290
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FemmeUrbane View Post
    By this argument, a gun can't be good, either...
    You are correct.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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