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View Poll Results: Should civilians be permitted to own guns?

Voters
134. You may not vote on this poll
  • NO! Guns are EVIL and serve no good purpose.

    21 15.67%
  • YES! Guns are USEFUL and are nice to have when you need them.

    79 58.96%
  • Maybe... I wouldn't own one, but I don't mind if you do.

    30 22.39%
  • What's a gun?

    4 2.99%
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Results 121 to 130 of 527

  1. #121
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I'm glad you brought up Switzerland Peguy. It does have a high rate of gun ownership and yet according to this wiki article there's only about 300 or so deaths related to guns a year.

    I was actually using Switzerland as the basis for the thinking that better education and licensing may solve many of the problems. From that article it is stated that both the Swiss gun licensing requires knowledge of related issues and tests of proficiency and also that there is a required period in the militia. Not that I'm suggesting everyone should spend time in the military if they want a gun, hell for some that'd be a dream come true, but more that with a more responsible approach to firearms it IS possible to have both private ownership of firearms without the associated problems.
    Well I have an interesting article that does compare Swiss and American gun policies. When I find time I'll post it here.

    Just a week or so ago, I was reading how Vermont has some of the loosest restrictions on guns and one of the lowest crime rates in America as well.

    So much evidence can be used to dispute the supposed correlation between more guns and higher crime rates.

    I will add that the element of strong communitarian ties is an important issue that has to be considered in this discussion as well. Of course that'll raise a shitload of other questions, which are beyond the scope of this debate.

  2. #122
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Switzerland(Is homogeneous in the specific demographic areas (French, German, Italian, Romansh)) and Vermont(98.1% white) are both highly homogeneous areas.

    Other areas in the USA are not so homogeneous, and areas like those tend to be a lot more conflict prone than the homogeneous ones.

    That is especially clear if these demographic groups are not condensed in a "mixing pot", but are instead scattered like mozaics in which certain demographics are preferred, the demographic intermix lines(Think of the areas that connect two different demographic zones.) are usually one of the highest conflict prone areas available.

    Like it or not, xenophobia is a very deep thing in our subconscious. There are only two posibilities that can solve this in my mind, group a, exille the demographics by groups to states and concentrate them there, this would remove a lot of the problems from the inner state and make the problem an interstate one, but leaving the inner state a lot more peaceful. Think of it as creating an overall enemy that unites the people.

    or you can just highly encourage mixing between groups. If the groups were to universally mix without creating specific demographic zone areas, this would be like "bluring" the definition of "the enemy".



    Also, Switzerlands GINI coefficient is nearly two times lower than that of the USA(0.25-0.29 vs 0.40-0.44). IMO, this also has an effect on conflict proneness.



    TLR
    Switzerland is far more unified, both ethnicity and wealth distribution wise, than America. This in effect creates less of an "We vs. You" enviroment which is prone to be less conflict inclined than that of America.

    P.S. Ignore it if this post doesn't make too much sense, I seem to have problems thinking in English at the moment.

  3. #123
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Switzerland(Is homogeneous in the specific demographic areas (French, German, Italian, Romansh)) and Vermont(98.1% white) are both highly homogeneous areas.

    Other areas in the USA are not so homogeneous, and areas like those tend to be a lot more conflict prone than the homogeneous ones. That is especially clear on the demographic intermix lines. (Think of the areas that connect two different demographic zones.)

    Like it or not, xenophobia is a very deep thing in our subconscious.
    The sociologist Robert Putnam also did a study showing this as well:
    While in Sweden to receive a $50,000 academic prize as political science professor of the year, Harvard’s Robert D. Putnam, a former Carter administration official who made his reputation writing about the decline of social trust in America in his bestseller Bowling Alone, confessed to Financial Times columnist John Lloyd that his latest research discovery—that ethnic diversity decreases trust and co-operation in communities—was so explosive that for the last half decade he hadn’t dared announce it “until he could develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity, saying it ‘would have been irresponsible to publish without that.’”

    In a column headlined “Harvard study paints bleak picture of ethnic diversity,” Lloyd summarized the results of the largest study ever of “civic engagement,” a survey of 26,200 people in 40 American communities:
    When the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, they showed that the more people of different races lived in the same community, the greater the loss of trust. ‘They don’t trust the local mayor, they don’t trust the local paper, they don’t trust other people and they don’t trust institutions,’ said Prof Putnam. ‘The only thing there’s more of is protest marches and TV watching.’
    Lloyd noted, “Prof Putnam found trust was lowest in Los Angeles, ‘the most diverse human habitation in human history.’”....

    ....

    ....Before Putnam hid his study away, his research had appeared on March 1, 2001 in a Los Angeles Times article entitled “Love Thy Neighbor? Not in L.A.” Reporter Peter Y. Hong recounted, “Those who live in more homogeneous places, such as New Hampshire, Montana or Lewiston, Maine, do more with friends and are more involved in community affairs or politics than residents of more cosmopolitan areas, the study said.”....
    The American Conservative -- Fragmented Future

    This is why I don't buy into the whole creed of "diversity" in contemporary multiculturalism.

    During the primaries; it was shown that whites who lived in more raciall homogenous areas were more likely to vote for Obama, while whites who lived in more racially mixed areas tended to vote for Hillary.

  4. #124
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    or you can just highly encourage mixing between groups. If the groups were to universally mix without creating specific demographic zone areas, this would be like "bluring" the definition of "the enemy".
    According to history, whenever mixture occured on a vast scale, that actually tended to increase tensions rather than decrease them. Intermixing has historically stimulated ethno-racial tensions.

    Some of the most brutal fighting in Bosnia occured in areas with the highest inter-marriage rates.

    In Latin America, the result of mass intermixing was a strict racial caste system with whites on top and mestizos along with natives on the bottom; a system which still operates today. The upper class promotes the idea of a single "Mestizo race" in order to perpetuate its hold on power.

    Slavoj Žižek has made remarks about Western multiculturalism, and how its proponents seem to support it from a distance. Most, if not all, of them certainly don't live muliticulturally, which would involve living according to the strict moral standards of non-Western cultures.

    So while they bitch about the oppressive nature of Western civilization, they're dependent upon it for not only their daily living, but for their very ideals.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The sociologist Robert Putnam also did a study showing this as well:


    The American Conservative -- Fragmented Future

    This is why I don't buy into the whole creed of "diversity" in contemporary multiculturalism.

    During the primaries; it was shown that whites who lived in more raciall homogenous areas were more likely to vote for Obama, while whites who lived in more racially mixed areas tended to vote for Hillary.
    Well this makes it look like even a proportionally intermixed group wouldn't help, thanks for the article.

    P.S. I need to learn how to write posts without editing them, all of this is making stufdf a hell lot of more confusing.

  6. #126
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    According to history, whenever mixture occured on a vast scale, that actually tended to increase tensions rather than decrease them. Intermixing has historically stimulated ethno-racial tensions.

    Some of the most brutal fighting in Bosnia occured in areas with the highest inter-marriage rates.

    In Latin America, the result of mass intermixing was a strict racial caste system with whites on top and mestizos along with natives on the bottom; a system which still operates today. The upper class promotes the idea of a single "Mestizo race" in order to perpetuate its hold on power.

    Slavoj Žižek has made remarks about Western multiculturalism, and how its proponents seem to support it from a distance. Most, if not all, of them certainly don't live muliticulturally, which would involve living according to the strict moral standards of non-Western cultures.

    So while they bitch about the oppressive nature of Western civilization, they're dependent upon it for not only their daily living, but for their very ideals.
    Ok. This further proves that the second idea was a shitty one.

    What would you think about the first one? Exiling the the different demographics to different state and trying to unite a populus by creating an image of "common enemy"?

  7. #127
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    What would you think about the first one? Exiling the the different demographics to different state and trying to unite a populus by creating an image of "common enemy"?
    That's probably the only way to really go. And it's already happening in many parts of America, including mine. Many have already termed this phenomena as "Voluntary Apartheid".

  8. #128
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Just a week or so ago, I was reading how Vermont has some of the loosest restrictions on guns and one of the lowest crime rates in America as well.
    Loosest is an understatement. It may very well be the loosest restrictions in a western country. As I've said elsewhere, if you are over 16 or so, walk into store, go through instant background check, don't say you're planning on killing people....and walk out with whatever the hell you want. (And, no, there is no limit on quantities. If you want 500 M-4s, you may buy them.) And you may then carry whatever you've bought concealed, in any place without an explicit prohibition on it.

    I much, much more believe that what you've said below (racial diversity) has more to do with crime/violence rates.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  9. #129
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Loosest is an understatement. It may very well be the loosest restrictions in a western country. As I've said elsewhere, if you are over 16 or so, walk into store, go through instant background check, don't say you're planning on killing people....and walk out with whatever the hell you want. (And, no, there is no limit on quantities. If you want 500 M-4s, you may buy them.) And you may then carry whatever you've bought concealed, in any place without an explicit prohibition on it.
    That's fucking awesome!!!!!!!!

    In my state things are a bit more restrictive, although overall there's general support for gun ownership here.

  10. #130
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    So the solution is to produce more weapons and arm more people which will result in more weapons ending up in the hands of criminals and the 'good guys' needing more firepower. I understand the need to defend yourself but it’s not a solution, it’s part of the problem.
    The problem is neither weaponry nor mass production, it's the small number of human beings who delight in or are indifferent to using violence as means to whatever end. And, by association, your use of scare quotes to dismiss the majority population who would never think of malice, let alone carrying it out with a firearm.

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