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  1. #281
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You are afraid that someone will abuse power in the future. But your politicians have been abusing their power for decades. This is nothing new.


    The US in the current moment has a lot of divisions from the inside. Which is exactly because no one wants to be controlled.
    Which makes the entire system unstable. So in order to boost the spirit of unity you must do it through nationalism. Which can lead/leads to closed minded mind set.


    I am sorry but you live in a form of totalitarian system.
    What you say is not new or surprising, you must know this. It is an often expressed viewpoint.

    This is exactly what I was pointing out. The funny part is that the fear of a powerful government, in the form of putting thoughts of government out of mind whenever possible, has led slowly but surely to more powerful government. But we don't want to think about it. The conundrum is funny (when observed from a distance).
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  2. #282
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    the idea that the government is responsible for keeping its people healthy is where your argument, to me at least, collapses. people should have the option to live a healthy lifestyle (e.g. having access to clean water, knowing content of the food you eat, etc). however, removing any sort of economic penalty for living an unhealthy lifestyle removes incentives for people to take care of themselves. the government should be responsible for ensuring people have the opportunity to live and be healthy, they should not ensure that they actually do live heathily.

    the problem with these arguments is that *on the surface* it sounds like a good idea. provide free health care -- who wouldn't want something for nothing. BUT, when you actually look at the ramifications of these types of programs you see all sorts of moral hazards and unintended consequences. and whats worse is, a lot of these programs are essentially impossible to roll back.
    yes, but living a healthy lifestyle doesn't necessarily mean people can or will stay healthy. so many more variables are involved in being healthy than life choices. this sounds like something a young, cocky, white, healthy, American male would say. what about accidents, injuries, old age, cancer, etc.?

    in 'allowing an opportunity to be healthy' and then stepping back, the american capitalist system, it seems to me, just allows the ones in power to step in and take charge--the insurance companies and, to a lesser degree, medicine's upper-level-providers--those who have the big bucks, and virtually no checks on their actions.

    then end result is The People still end up screwed, strapped, and sick.
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  3. #283
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    What you say is not new or surprising, you must know this. It is an often expressed viewpoint.

    This is exactly what I was pointing out. The funny part is that the fear of a powerful government, in the form of putting thoughts of government out of mind whenever possible, has led slowly but surely to more powerful government. But we don't want to think about it. The conundrum is funny (when observed from a distance).
    You are right it is somewhat funny when you watch it from the outside.

    What make you say that the goverment is more powerful now then it was before?

  4. #284
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You are right taxpayers are paying for this. But the point is that it is only a
    intermediator in this matters. But people in the US seem to dislike this idea.
    Ok, it is your choice.

    Also one of the benefits that you get in my system is that you can know that if you die in a car accident that your child still has a chance to finnish college. Even if it not a genious.


    On the other hand you are on the highway to the opposite side of the spectrum. Which is that big companies control and dictates in which direction society should go. I would dare to say that your government is more or less completely under control of big business that wants only profit.
    So it is in their intrest to make goverment (which they control) look bad since that makes them stronger.

    In a way you are going exactly where you don't want to be. Which is totalitarian value system. The advertisemen is generally nothing more then a brain wash. Food quality is quite questionable and you have to buy your water in some store. (While I can still drink the one from a pipeline.)

    You are afraid that someone will abuse power in the future. But your polititians are abusing their power for decades. This is nothing new.


    The US in the current moment has a lot of divisions from the inside. What is exactly because no one want to be controled.
    What makes the entire system unstabile. So in order to boost the spirit of unity you must do it through nationalism. What can lead/leads to closed minded mind set.


    I am sorry but you live in a form of totalitarian system.
    i have a lot more faith in the free-market and competition than you.

    and as long as businesses, big or small, are subject to competition (non-monopolies) and can be held accountable for their misdeeds then they are a healthy force.

    i'm not sure where you get your information but the quality of food and water in the places i've lived (and in most of the US) are fine. people here can drink water out of the tap, pipeline or w/e. *some* choose to drink from bottles because they feel the extra filtering is worth their two dollars. it is the same distinction people make when deciding between drinking a cheap wine vs. a more expensive wine.

    abuse of power is exactly the thing i'm against. and its not just *our* politicians that abuse power. it is ALL politicians that abuse power if not checked -- yours and mine alike.

    if parents want to protect their children in the case of their death then that is what insurance and wills are for. i have no desire to pay for my neighbors' children's college tuition. that is the responsibility of the parents to arrange.

    and i'm not sure what your last point was, but our system is stable precisely because there are so many divisions within it. competing viewpoints, competing interests, competing ideologies all serve to strengthen the others and if one doesn't hold up against scrutiny then it abandoned. america may look like it is in chaos to outsiders, at least when compared with true totalitarian states, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it is incapable of uniting when the situation calls for it.

    of course, there is a core set of principles that only a few would dispute. these principles are described in our constitution and our declaration of independence. if you want to say that we have been brain washed with the ideas of freedom, liberty or equality then i will, in this case, have to agree.

    if government were to take your advice it would care for its citizens from cradle to grave creating a completely decadent society with no ambition to achieve greatness. once they reach a certain point, their achievements are diminished by the state and the fruits of their labor are distributed. what is the result? those who chose to live a sedentary life, leaving their care to the government elect to remain in the system while those ambitious few who drive the economy move to where their ambitions are nurtured, nourished and rewarded. like most social engineers you're ignoring incentives. give the government the power to attend to every need of the people while taxing everyone huge amounts -- what types of people do you think want to perpetuate such a system and what types of people do you think would want to escape it.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  5. #285
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    i have a lot more faith in the free-market and competition than you.

    and as long as businesses, big or small, are subject to competition (non-monopolies) and can be held accountable for their misdeeds then they are a healthy force.
    there is no competition when it comes to sick consumers who have to just bend over and take it. what are they/YOU gonna do when you're sick....shop around for more affordable, yet safe, health care? and where is the more affordable care? doctors and hospitals charge what they want and insurance companies pay what they want, and the consumer has no power in this scenario.
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  6. #286
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    there is no competition when it comes to sick consumers who have to just bend over and take it. what are they/YOU gonna do when you're sick....shop around for more affordable, yet safe, health care? and where is the more affordable care? doctors and hospitals charge what they want and insurance companies pay what they want, and the consumer has no power in this scenario.
    and this is why i *might* be in favor of regulation that creates a more competetive insurance/healthcare market. what i am not in favor of is the government taking the "easy" road and simply nationalizing healthcare.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  7. #287
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    i have a lot more faith in the free-market and competition than you.

    and as long as businesses, big or small, are subject to competition (non-monopolies) and can be held accountable for their misdeeds then they are a healthy force.

    i'm not sure where you get your information but the quality of food and water in the places i've lived (and in most of the US) are fine. people here can drink water out of the tap, pipeline or w/e. *some* choose to drink from bottles because they feel the extra filtering is worth their two dollars. it is the same distinction people make when deciding between drinking a cheap wine vs. a more expensive wine.

    abuse of power is exactly the thing i'm against. and its not just *our* politicians that abuse power. it is ALL politicians that abuse power if not checked -- yours and mine alike.

    if parents want to protect their children in the case of their death then that is what insurance and wills are for. i have no desire to pay for my neighbors' children's college tuition. that is the responsibility of the parents to arrange.

    and i'm not sure what your last point was, but our system is stable precisely because there are so many divisions within it. competing viewpoints, competing interests, competing ideologies all serve to strengthen the others and if one doesn't hold up against scrutiny then it abandoned. america may look like it is in chaos to outsiders, at least when compared with true totalitarian states, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it is incapable of uniting when the situation calls for it.

    of course, there is a core set of principles that only a few would dispute. these principles are described in our constitution and our declaration of independence. if you want to say that we have been brain washed with the ideas of freedom, liberty or equality then i will, in this case, have to agree.

    if government were to take your advice it would care for its citizens from cradle to grave and the society becomes completely decadent with no ambition to achieve greatness. once they reach a certain point, their achievements are diminished by the state and the fruits of their labor are distributed. what is the result? those who chose to live a sedentary life, leaving their care to the government elect to remain in the system while those ambitious few who drive the economy move to where their ambitions are nurtured, nourished and rewarded. like most social engineers you're ignoring incentives. give the government the power to attend to every need of the people while taxing everyone huge amounts -- what types of people do you think want to perpetuate such a system and what types of people do you think would want to escape it.
    We have ideological clash but that is nothing strange.

    If you say so I will take your word that US is strong from whitin.
    I know that you can unite if it is obvious that you must but what if threat is not so obvious?

    You are taking some of the arguments in a wrong way. Just because you are "safe" when it comes to health and education that does not mean that you are really safe and that you can enjoy your life. Since it is a free market out there. This is what I am saying from the start people in the US look at things in a black and white manner



    As for job argument I disagree. What is modern American workplace?
    It is a office of some kind in many cases. Today real work does not exist anymore since machines are doing everything for you.
    Basicly most of people are just running in circles.


    On the other hand big companies can export jobs in a countries where it is cheaper labour and you have no one to protect you from this. Since your government is too uninfluential to do something about it.

  8. #288
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    and this is why i *might* be in favor of regulation that creates a more competetive insurance/healthcare market. what i am not in favor of is the government taking the "easy" road and simply nationalizing healthcare.
    fair 'nuf, but 'they' always seem to find a loophole in regulations, don't they?
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #289
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    ...I look at what's going on in the UK with their ever-increasing surveillance systems*, their proposed ID cards etc., and it surprises me that there's not more of a reaction against it. Is this related to a cultural difference between how gov't is perceived? To the fact that the UK lacks an actual hard document constitution? Is the UK even a good example, given that it occupies this weird space apart from Europe AND the US (again, in my mind)?
    You are right to suggest the UK has ever-increasing surveillance systems but that could be said for lots of places.

    The problem with things like anti-terrorism legislation, ID cards, and CCTV is they are all double edged weapons. For example, ID cards may stop illegal immigration, fraud, and terrorism but the information could be also be used against the general public.

    I am not sure is it has anything to do with how the governments are perceived, but I am sure it has next to nothing to do with the UK not fixed set of rules or constitution as the US constitution did not stop the PATRIOT Act, did it? Also, believe it or not laws on the privacy rights are more highly legislated in the UK than the US. The Uk just does not follow its legislation and the US seems to follow legislation that does not even exist in theory.

    The UK government has not voted for a compulsory ID system yet but rather to have an voluntary ID system, which they struggled to be passed. For it to be made compulsory, Gordon Brown would have to win the next general election, and quite frankly there is more chance of Shergar being found than that happening. Even if he did win the election he would would sill have trouble getting a compulsory ID system passed and being accepted. Don't forget the UK has already had a compulsory ID system during each of the World Wars which failed both times miserably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    *It's now illegal in the UK to film the police when they're working. So, for example, that recent footage that came out of the police hitting that uninvolved-in-the-protest dude with the baton and shoving him onto the ground is/was technically illegally taken?
    It depends on the circumstance.

    The video of Ian Tomlinson, which you referred to, was taken 100% legally even under the Terrorism Act 2000.

    The Terrorism Act says it is only illegal to collect information of police constable if it is useful in helping committing or preparing an act of terrorism; the video of Ian Tomlinson is not really helpful for those aims. Hence, when the Independent Police Complaints Commission attempted to secure a court order to prevent the broadcast of the video using the Terrorism Act, because they thought he may interfere with their criminal investigation, a judge refused to grant the injunction.

    Terrorism Act 2000;

    58.
    Collection of information.
    — (1) A person commits an offence if—
    (a)
    he collects or makes a record of information of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or
    (b)
    he possesses a document or record containing information of that kind.
    (2) In this section “record” includes a photographic or electronic record.
    (3) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had a reasonable excuse for his action or possession.
    (4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
    (a)
    on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years, to a fine or to both, or
    (b)
    on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both.
    (5) A court by or before which a person is convicted of an offence under this section may order the forfeiture of any document or record containing information of the kind mentioned in subsection (1)(a).
    (6) Before making an order under subsection (5) a court must give an opportunity to be heard to any person, other than the convicted person, who claims to be the owner of or otherwise interested in anything which can be forfeited under that subsection.
    (7) An order under subsection (5) shall not come into force until there is no further possibility of it being varied, or set aside, on appeal (disregarding any power of a court to grant leave to appeal out of time).
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  10. #290
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    very interesting thread.

    I do not have anything to say for it all, though.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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