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  1. #201
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The demand for drugs is inelastic (which is why prohibition will ALWAYS be a failure). The demand for guns may not be completely elastic, but it's more elastic than drugs.
    Are you talking about the US in particular? The demand for guns around here is minimal. I know because a friend of mine wanted to get one once. He ended up not getting one. Elastic or not (and I don't see why would it be more elastic than drugs seeing as how the need for protection is constant, possibly increasing even in western societies) in countries where it's banned (if they are anything like mine) it's kind of tough to get hold of a gun.

    Anyway, I'm not Economics expert but the demand of something like hard drugs would definately be affected by legalization, in some way. A lot of people don't try them out out of fear of going to jail, and some of the people who look for it still have some trouble keeping it secret. With legalization all of that would fade.

  2. #202
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Are you talking about the US in particular? The demand for guns around here is minimal. I know because a friend of mine wanted to get one once. He ended up not getting one. Elastic or not (and I don't see why would it be more elastic than drugs seeing as how the need for protection is constant, possibly increasing even in western societies) in countries where it's banned (if they are anything like mine) it's kind of tough to get hold of a gun.
    Nothing you've said here refutes any of my points.

    A lot of people don't try them out out of fear of going to jail, and some of the people who look for it still have some trouble keeping it secret. With legalization all of that would fade.
    You can't seriously believe this. I'd like to see the statistics that show drug usage decreases as enforcement increases. (they don't exist because that doesn't happen)
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #203
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    It's likely that a number of people that did not try them before will try them now, but there are two factors that will cause the impact to be negligible:
    - most people that want to try, can already try with ease (in fact, often people are pushed towards trying rather than not trying). This means that only a relatively small percentage of those willing are left out of the equation by protectionism.
    - most people that try do not become chronic users, so the relatively small percentage becomes even smaller (say 10% of those willing used to be deterred, and of those a 10 percent becomes chronic user - the total impact on the demand will be around 8 percent (1/11 to be more precise), not enough to be considered as elastic).
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #204
    Oberon
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    We aren't successful at keeping drugs and weapons out of our prisons.

    So how much freedom do we have to give up to ensure our safety from these scourges?

  5. #205
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nothing you've said here refutes any of my points.

    Wasn't the goal in itself. Only to reinforce the idea that there are countries outside of the US that ban guns. They aren't necessarily worse from a criminality standpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You can't seriously believe this. I'd like to see the statistics that show drug usage decreases as enforcement increases. (they don't exist because that doesn't happen)
    You're right, no such statistics exist since all countries ban hard drugs (i think). But obviously there aren't statistics showing a lift of said ban wouldn't alter the consumption rate, either. And why do you say the demand for guns is more elastic?

    Anyway, are you saying that there aren't people (think gullible kids again) whose only barrier preventing them from turning into junkies is the law?? It's like most crimes. When the law prohibits any kind of behavior people are bound to feel threatened. If no prohibition existed in the first place, it wouldn't even be an issue.


    FDG: Like I said, different places different realities. Even within the US I'm assuming there is an enormous discrepancy in the ease to buy hard drugs depending on where you live.

    As for the percentage of chronic users that's kind of news to me (not saying it's not true though). I thought most people consuming hard drugs had to go through hell to leave that kind of life behind. If it's even remotely similar to nicotine in terms of addictive-ness I can say 10% seems like a small number.

  6. #206
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
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    I think that laws convey a country's expectationas as much as just being there to define boundaries and apply apporpraite sanctions accordingly... therefore, to understand a country's expectations the genral laws of that country are quite tell tale
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  7. #207
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Wasn't the goal in itself. Only to reinforce the idea that there are countries outside of the US that ban guns. They aren't necessarily worse from a criminality standpoint.
    Check out the statistics on gun bans within US borders.

    You're right, no such statistics exist since all countries ban hard drugs (i think). But obviously there aren't statistics showing a lift of said ban wouldn't alter the consumption rate, either. And why do you say the demand for guns is more elastic?
    There have been changes in level of enforcement (Nixon's War on Drugs started in 1970).

    Do you even understand what elastic and inelastic mean? I ask that because I don't think you do. The fact that you would need someone to explain why drug demand is less elastic than guns is stupefying. I'm starting to think that you have a really warped concept of human nature.

    Anyway, are you saying that there aren't people (think gullible kids again) whose only barrier preventing them from turning into junkies is the law?? It's like most crimes. When the law prohibits any kind of behavior people are bound to feel threatened. If no prohibition existed in the first place, it wouldn't even be an issue.
    You have got to be kidding me. You really don't see the difference between victimless crimes, like drug use, and murder/rape/assault? I'm not talking about morality. I'm talking about risk. It's relatively difficult to get away with murder because there a missing person. Compare that to drug use.

    I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. I'm done with this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #208
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Check out the statistics on gun bans within the US borders.


    There have been changes in level of enforcement (Nixon's War on Drugs started in 1970).

    Do you even understand what elastic and inelastic mean? I ask that because I don't think you do. The fact that you would need someone to explain why drug demand is less elastic than guns is stupefying. I'm starting to think that you have a really warped concept of human nature.


    You have got to be kidding me. You really don't see the difference between victimless crimes, like drug use, and murder/rape/assault? I'm not talking about morality. I'm talking about risk. It's relatively difficult to get away with murder because there a missing person. Compare that to drug use.

    I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here. I'm done with this.
    Normally I'd feel the need and obligation to reply and try and clarify what needed to be clarified but you are clearly not even trying to understand my point. Really mature on your part.

  9. #209
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    FDG: Like I said, different places different realities. Even within the US I'm assuming there is an enormous discrepancy in the ease to buy hard drugs depending on where you live.
    I would put a substantial bet that you can find almost any hard drug you would like in any largeish city here. I would also bet you can find plenty of Meth in the rural areas. Quite frankly, we are EXTREMELY unsuccessful at stopping drugs, and I wish they'd point that money at more useful things, like drug education and the like.

    As for the percentage of chronic users that's kind of news to me (not saying it's not true though). I thought most people consuming hard drugs had to go through hell to leave that kind of life behind.
    Not everyone becomes addicted. There are a huge number of people who've had a cigarette at some point, but haven't become addicted.

    As for the "banning guns" issue. It's kind of irrelevant, we have 270 million of them in private hands in this country, "banning" them, wouldn't do much, as I can assure you that at least 75% of gun owners would not give them up if the law changed.
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  10. #210
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    As for the percentage of chronic users that's kind of news to me (not saying it's not true though). I thought most people consuming hard drugs had to go through hell to leave that kind of life behind. If it's even remotely similar to nicotine in terms of addictive-ness I can say 10% seems like a small number.
    What I meant was, percentage of chronic users over people that try a drug just once. There's a lot of people that smoke marijuana once a month, they compose a rather small part of total demand.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

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