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  1. #41
    Sniffles
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    Kelric, you gave a thoughful response to your side. And I'll give you credit for bearing in mind that I am ranting here, which means I'm going to be sarcastic in my own unique way.

    Honestly, one motivation I have here is for us to laugh at how absurd our own side can be at times when discussing these issues.

    The serious argument behind all this is just why is there so much emotion put behind this issue. Yes I can understand why Gays do so, but what about non-gays?

    And yes plenty of shit is said and done on both sides. But so much attention is given to the shit of the opposition to gay marriage, I don't see much honest discussion about the shit the pro-gay marriage side does.

    So on that account, I don't think I have to answer much of what you posted. If you really want me to answer to your questions and arguments, then I'll oblige.

    And yet, back in the 50's, people of all races could get married under the law. I realize that interracial marriages weren't allowed in some places... but do you agree that this change to those laws relating to marriage was a step in the right direction? Allowing people to marry those whom they love, regardless of race/ethnicity? I'd say this is a *very* good analogy to the question of gay marriage.
    This is somewhat of a tricky issue on many levels; not least of which involving the constrasting perspectives of Positive and Negative freedoms. Almost all arguments in favor of allowing gay and interracial marriages are founded upon the logic of Negative freedom; wheras arguments against gay and at that time interracial marriages are/were usually founded on the logic of Positive freedom.

    Of course it's past midnight, and certainly not the best time for me to be articulating this issue at great length. Not least of which because my Ni is out of whack due to a stressful work week.

    So hopefully tomorrow at the soonest I'll add onto this.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I was pondering about this last night, and I guess upon viewing this thread; I honestly have to ask this question - seriously people, what is the big deal about gay marriage?

    And I'm not stereotypically addressing this to people who oppose gay marriage, but rather to those people who support it.

    I mean seriously, out of all the issues one could possibly preoccupy themselves with, this is the one you choose? Out of all the issues related to human rights, this is the major one?

    And don't give me this bullshit that it's really opponents who are reallty obsessed with this issue. You supporters constantly like to shove this issue into peoples' faces, and heaven forbid if they actually have the balls to express an opposing opinion - then all of a sudden they showered with endless abuse of being homophobic, intolerant, bigoted, behind the times, cross-burner, bambai killer(opps wrong category!).

    You're often about as self-righteous as any member of the Religious Right. Just admit it, you thrive off them.

    I can't count how many times I've had this happened to me personally. And just for the record, 99.999999999999999+% of discussions I have about gay marriage - or homosexuality in general for that matter - are initiated by supporters of gay rights.

    I find it rather odd that when people voice opposition to traditional religion, it seems that gay marriage is fast replacing burning at the stake as the number one reason. Really people?

    Is it really necessary to have gay marriage on the ballot every damn election? It gets rather irritating having to constantly vote NO on the same damn issue year after year after year after year after year.

    So yes I'll just like to end this little rant with a polite request: Just shut the fuck up already on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!
    This is a disappointing post.

    And for the sake of clarification, do you prefer we answer your thread title or or just STFU?

    Vituperation and contradictions FTL sir...
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #43
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Well than let me make my stance clear; I don't care if you're fervently against gay marriage, I don't care if you are unwilling to hear arguments supporting it, you have the right to your opinion. In fact I'm not telling you to stfu because I disagree with your stance, that would be pointless, I'm saying starting a thread about a topic you personally do not want to discuss and telling other people they shouldn't either is sad.
    The simple point I'm making here is that I'm sick of this discussion because it's repeated Ad nauseum - and this technically applies to people who are opposed and supportive of gay marriage.

    I decided to target gay marriage supporters because well they just don't get as much attention.

  4. #44
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    I don't want to seem provocative, but I really don't see why straight people should even get a say as to whether gay people can marry or not.

    As fatuous as is it is to hypothetically invert majorities and minorities, if straight people found that their right to get married was held by the consensus of gay people they would be, quite rightfully, affronted.

    Imagine if men were the majority and they decided one day that tampons were illegal, that women would just have to make do without them. Despite men in this case being the majority, the decision is one they shouldn't be allowed to make as it has no effect on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I mean seriously, out of all the issues one could possibly preoccupy themselves with, this is the one you choose? Out of all the issues related to human rights, this is the major one?
    You say this like advocates are starving people to death all across the world. But of course some problems are difficult to solve, others not so difficult. War, domestic terrorism, a failing economy, these are issues with no simple answer, but the act of allowing men to marry men and women to marry women is passive, it's a simple change. Once consent is given you're not likely to hear about it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And don't give me this bullshit that it's really opponents who are reallty obsessed with this issue. You supporters constantly like to shove this issue into peoples' faces,

    ....

    I can't count how many times I've had this happened to me personally. And just for the record, 99.999999999999999+% of discussions I have about gay marriage - or homosexuality in general for that matter - are initiated by supporters of gay rights.
    Really? You've had over one hundred trillion (short scale) conversations about homosexuality? Even if those conversations were only a second long you'd have to be over three billion (short scale) years old.

    Of course advocates are the ones more passionate about gay marriage as they want things to change. Opponents don't want things to change so why would they be as obsessed with the issue? There are people who feel that not being able to marry the person they love is a great imposition on their lives, so what would they benefit by keeping quiet about the subject?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Is it really necessary to have gay marriage on the ballot every damn election? It gets rather irritating having to constantly vote NO on the same damn issue year after year after year after year after year.
    Yes and maybe we should have had only one vote on slavery as well and if people wanted to keep it, then the decision should have been kept up for the rest of eternity.

    But then maybe the people who prepare the ballots have this rose tinted view that the world is going through a process of maturity, I know, it's laughable.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    They are not the same. These days White Americans who are not gay are obsessed with both racial prejudice and gay rights out of boredom.
    So that's why men supported the women's suffrage movement: boredom! And here I thought it was the ideological notion of concerning ourselves with the welfare of our brothers and sisters, as well as ourselves.

    I'm so Idyllic that way.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  6. #46
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    As to why hetero supporters are so vehement --

    because we have friends who are gay, so we are showing solidarity

    because we feel expressions of intimacy and sexuality among consenting adults is nobody else's business, least of all the government's, to tell anyone whether or not they can marry -- this is not or should not be the function of the government

  7. #47
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The simple point I'm making here is that I'm sick of this discussion because it's repeated Ad nauseum - and this technically applies to people who are opposed and supportive of gay marriage.

    I decided to target gay marriage supporters because well they just don't get as much attention.
    A gay marriage ban is the government taking part in a religion-driven persecution. Of course it's important, from the basic legal (differences between legal marriage and a civil union), symbolic, moral, and legal precedent (you here these religious nuts making the absurd claim that legalizing gay marriage sets a legal precedent that will lead to legalized bestiality or something, you never hear the same people talking about the much more real legal precedent of the government enforcing not only a religious rule, but a religious rule that has no moral basis). I'd say all of that is pretty damn important.

    I get 'emotional' about the issue because I have gay/bisexual friends, and because I think that a gay marriage ban is an incredibly unfair thing, and sometimes it seems like I'm talking to people (you?) who don't care about fairness. I think it is very stupid to base a core value on some arbitrary instruction in some old book and cruel to try to force other people to follow that instruction.

  8. #48
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    A gay marriage ban is the government taking part in a religion-driven persecution. Of course it's important, from the basic legal (differences between legal marriage and a civil union), symbolic, moral, and legal precedent (you here these religious nuts making the absurd claim that legalizing gay marriage sets a legal precedent that will lead to legalized bestiality or something, you never hear the same people talking about the much more real legal precedent of the government enforcing not only a religious rule, but a religious rule that has no moral basis). I'd say all of that is pretty damn important.
    How can a religious rule not have a moral basis?

    And as for the relationshio between religion and law, that's long been established within American legal traditions.

    In another thread on Church-state relations, I cited excerpts from the legal lectures of Associate Justice of the Supreme Court James Wilson of 1791; where he meditated upon the meaning and foundations of the recently ratified Constitution(of which he was a principal author of, second only to Madison). Records show that George Washington was in attendence of many of these lectures.

    Here's what he states concerning the relationship between secular and religious laws:
    "Of law there are different kinds. All, however, may be arranged in two different classes. 1. Divine. 2. Human laws. The descriptive epithets employed denote, that the former have God, the latter, man, for their author....

    ...Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."

    Works of James Wilson
    I get 'emotional' about the issue because I have gay/bisexual friends, and because I think that a gay marriage ban is an incredibly unfair thing, and sometimes it seems like I'm talking to people (you?) who don't care about fairness. I think it is very stupid to base a core value on some arbitrary instruction in some old book and cruel to try to force other people to follow that instruction.
    For the record, I have gay friends too and they're very supportive of gay marriage too. Yet I still stand by my views.

    As for fairness, I can answer that I believe in justice and the common good.
    Last edited by Sniffles; 12-13-2008 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Made it more readable.

  9. #49
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Is it that marriages used to be gayer and now there is less gaiety, thus a higher divorce rate? I mean, that could definitely be a big deal.
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  10. #50
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    I saw a youtube video earlier today about a gay couple. One of them got sick, and the other's insurance company wouldn't allow him to put his partner on his policy because they weren't legally married. So, when the guy got sick, he had to wait until he passed out and fainted, went to the ER at the hospital. The guy's lover had to fight his way in to see him because they weren't "legally married."

    Sounds like a good support for gay marriage to me.

    I'll find the vid if I have the time.

    Edit: And here it is:

    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4inyujYvJoE"]A Marriage Equality Story[/YOUTUBE]

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