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  1. #21
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I guess you might consider asking the people who are going out of their way to come up with crap like Prop 8 why it's such a big deal to them. If none of them cared like you don't care, then I don't think there would be much of an issue.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    Creating a thread about a topic you don't want to discuss is, well, I can't quite find the right words but arrogant comes to mind.

    Maybe, just maybe, it's an issue because it's pretty damn important to some people.
    Yes I understand that it's an important issue to some. What I don't understand is why its supposed importance is blown way out of proportion. Not only that, why is it that non-gay supporters are so passionated about the issue. And even more, why supporters cannot really explain why it's such an important issue - without resorting to rhetoric about human rights and analogies to the Civil Rights movement.

    The solution is really easy you know, as it's not something you want to discuss, don't discuss it. Personally I don't want to get involved with religious discussions so I simply avoid those threads, it really is that easy to do.
    Let me repeat myself: do a search of how many posts I've discussed this issue here. You'll find a grand total of 8 posts, most of them in this thread.

    So obviously I don't discuss it much here, and I try as best I can not to.

    And I'll also repeat what I just stated above about the fact I'm mostly referring to OFFLINE discussions on the matter.

    Thread is pathetic.
    Well nobody forced you to read this thread now did they? Remember folks, there's a red X button, top right hand corner of your browser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If I was clinging on to an indefensible position, I also would not like to be challenged to defend it constantly. I would much rather just agree to disagree because it implies an equality of views.
    Awwww.....how cute.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I guess you might consider asking the people who are going out of their way to come up with crap like Prop 8 why it's such a big deal to them.
    I could....but then everybody else is asking them that question. I would actually like to hear the other side of the issue answer that question for once.

    If none of them cared like you don't care, then I don't think there would be much of an issue.
    And I guess by that logic: if you guys didn't care as much as I don't - then it wouldn't be much of an issue either.

  4. #24
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I could....but then everybody else is asking them that question. I would actually like to hear the other side of the issue answer that question for once.
    The two sides don't have the same stake in it. Nobody's trying to take anything away from the side that is against gay marriage. So there's no correlative question for the pro gay marriage side to answer, since they're not bringing up legislation that would take anything away from anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And I guess by that logic: if you guys didn't care as much as I don't - then it wouldn't be much of an issue either.
    Why would you ask people not to care about something that either affects them personally, or that they see as an injustice?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #25
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Well, I'm not gay, and I don't have any real "personal" stake in the issue, and I'm certainly not obsessed about it. I do, however, disagree with you (note: this does not make me obsessive).

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And I'm not stereotypically addressing this to people who oppose gay marriage, but rather to those people who support it.
    Good thing you mentioned this, or I would (honestly) never have considered you were coming from this angle... It sounds like my experiences are very different from yours... I've never met anyone who's *for* it who's obsessive. Even the gay people I've heard aren't obsessive as the folks who rant about "saving the institution of traditional marriage".

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I mean seriously, out of all the issues one could possibly preoccupy themselves with, this is the one you choose? Out of all the issues related to human rights, this is the major one?
    Whoa... hold on there - what a whopper of an assumption. I admit - I clearly haven't talked to the same people you have if this is even a consideration, but are these people really telling you "I'm not that concerned with hunger, war, famine, disease, and child abuse, but gay marriage... *that* really gets me going!" People can care about more than one social issue, and many (if not all of the ones I listed) aren't mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And don't give me this bullshit that it's really opponents who are reallty obsessed with this issue. You supporters constantly like to shove this issue into peoples' faces, and heaven forbid if they actually have the balls to express an opposing opinion - then all of a sudden they showered with endless abuse of being homophobic, intolerant, bigoted, behind the times, cross-burner, bambai killer(opps wrong category!).
    Well, as a supporter of gay marriage, I've never shoved the issue in anyone's face... matter of fact, I've probably not even ever had a discussion about it, other than a couple posts on this forum. I've also never referred to someone as a homophobe or a bigot for disagreeing with me. Perhaps you weren't talking to me, fair enough... but I *do* fall under "You supporters" - so your comments are inaccurate for me, and I suspect, the majority of folks who share my view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    You're often about as self-righteous as any member of the Religious Right. Just admit it, you thrive off them.
    It's good to know that you see at least some of the "Religious Right" as self-righteous. People of all opinions can be, but again, I'm (and most other supporters) far from thriving on opposing the self-righteous religious figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I find it rather odd that when people voice opposition to traditional religion, it seems that gay marriage is fast replacing burning at the stake as the number one reason. Really people?
    I've never met anyone who states that gay marriage is their number one opposition to traditional religion. Although I can certainly see why gay people, their family, and friends would have plenty of reason to use that as a reason. I mean - it's really saying "this thing (marriage) is good and holy for everyone - well, except you." Objection on such grounds seems reasonable. But nobody I've ever heard of compares it to burning people at the stake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Is it really necessary to have gay marriage on the ballot every damn election? It gets rather irritating having to constantly vote NO on the same damn issue year after year after year after year after year.
    If someone were telling you that you couldn't marry, would you consider it important enough to put on the ballot? What other legal, responsible recourse is there? Quit? Give up? It's your right to vote no, but it's not your right to prevent others from getting the issue on the ballot. Note that I could (and do) feel exactly the same way about the groups who are constantly trying to *amend state constitutions and even the U.S. constitution* to prohibit gay marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So yes I'll just like to end this little rant with a polite request: Just shut the fuck up already on this issue!!!!!!!!!!!
    You started it .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Last time I checked; there are no seperate drinking fountains for gays, nor has a gay person been arrested for refusing to sit at the back of bus.
    And yet, back in the 50's, people of all races could get married under the law. I realize that interracial marriages weren't allowed in some places... but do you agree that this change to those laws relating to marriage was a step in the right direction? Allowing people to marry those whom they love, regardless of race/ethnicity? I'd say this is a *very* good analogy to the question of gay marriage.

    In the end, I realize that you were just getting a rant off of your chest, Peguy, but I disagree with you, in the strongest terms. I don't particularly care if churches don't want to recognize gay marriages, or if people, personally, don't consider them valid for whatever reason. I think they're wrong, but hey, they think the same about me. However I see absolutely no reason to prohibit gay people from enjoying the same kind of *protection under the law* that straight people have when it comes to marital rights. Allowing gay people to marry takes *nothing* away from straight people who are married - it just seems to me sort of nasty and petty for people to be so strongly against it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And even more, why supporters cannot really explain why it's such an important issue - without resorting to rhetoric about human rights and analogies to the Civil Rights movement.
    It's important to not give up any ground that has been won, if progress is desired.

    Awwww.....how cute.
    Cute is a zombie munching on brain for breakfast.

  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Peguy, let's say we legalize gay marriage. Will any horrible, or even bad, things come of this?

    Do you oppose it for religious reasons?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    So there's no correlative question for the pro gay marriage side to answer, since they're not bringing up legislation that would take anything away from anyone.
    This is one thing I'm really not understanding here; where the pro-Gay marriage side assumes it doesn't actually have to make a case for its argument.

    Why would you ask people not to care about something that either affects them personally, or that they see as an injustice?
    What you don't seem to understand is that argument cuts both ways.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    What you don't seem to understand is that argument cuts both ways.
    [/quote]
    Cuz it doesn't.

  10. #30
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    This is one thing I'm really not understanding here; where the pro-Gay marriage side assumes it doesn't actually have to make a case for its argument.
    The pro-straight marriage side has never had to make a case for their (our) right to marry members of the opposite sex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    What you don't seem to understand is that argument cuts both ways.
    I don't think it does, and I thought I covered that in the first part of my last post. Nobody's trying to take anything away from the other side. There's no injustice there for them to be up in arms about.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

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