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  1. #191
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    And to PT... so you're saying that the ladies can please each other in a polygamist household? Seriously- I can't see polygamy being good for anyone's sex lives unless the wives are undercover lesbians who don't want to come out to society
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Oh I suppose for about a month it would be great for the guy but then when all the bickering over his solitary penis broke out he'd been under such demands it seems he would soon suffer exhaustion...that is unless they were as you say simply lesbians who wanted a joint beard or something.
    *shrug* It was mostly a joke. Given the sheer dominance of polygamy in terms of cultures, however, you'll have to convince me that you are somehow better off under this system... especially when it is the only one you've known. So far it sounds like "it's not what I would want", which is fair, but keep in mind that most things we do want are mostly manufactured from the society we grow up in. Without the roman empire's choice of monogamy, the small amount of monogamy we do have might never of existed at all.

    The question, however, is not if you want it, but if it should be disallowed. Being disallowed under 'sex is not as good' is really not what I define as an acceptable stance, given that you are under no obligation to engage in it and that it would disallow others what they would prefer.

    (I tend to write too much, but there is one caveat in this - the roman influence could be natural selection, in a social sense, playing out. In this case, polygamy would be inferior, socially. Having said that, generally poly is better genetically. Way too involved to really know!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, it might... but I notice a tendency in human beings to be enticed by "that which they are not allowed to have.
    I think your phrase can be turned too - "that which they are not allowed to have" -> since it is now possible to have more than one woman, the desire to do so would decrease, leading to a marginal decrease in cheating.

    But debate tricks aside, the point I wanted to make in that post was that this applies to marriage too - humans are 'equal' between both systems. An additional outlet would take mid-range cheating in monogamy and transfer it into marriage (of multiple mates).

    Can I make it tangible? I see it kind of like the way it operates in some parts of asia now - 'duty' wife and distant mistress, or more like the Thai concepts of 1st wife/2nd wife. And it's illegal there, but... it's so standard that there is an entire market dedicated to hosting these women.

  2. #192
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Well then my argument (which might or might not be my actual position ) is that no marriage should have legal recognition so as to ensure that there is an equal application of the law and the state does not endorse any marriage practice which could have harmful effects. That way the legality (or lack of in this case) is based on equality, not on what the government thinks the people should think is best for them.

    Nice try turning the tables. I have a nagging suspicion that you already knew where I really stand.



    Huh? First off, there are no more bad outcomes for children being brought up in same sex homes than in heterosexual homes, so I'm not sure what justification you have to make that statement.
    I'm still speaking of hypotheticals here, responding to your statement that you would support a ban on adoption by same sex couples if studies showed that their adoptees fared worse on average than the adoptees of heterosexual couples.

    Second, children should be placed in homes based on their parent's ability to parent and ability to provide a stable home, not based upon the cultural opinion of the time.
    Agreed.

    And third, since when are bigots the majority?
    I didn't say they were. I said that placing the children with the majority (heterosexual couples, that is) would protect them from the teasing/bullying they might have otherwise encountered from the bigots from among the heterosexual households.

  3. #193
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    To PT-

    even if born in a culture where polygamy was the norm, some women have higher sex drives than others. I prefer to get mine 3 times a day. If the man has to please more than one woman there will be less for me. This would be bad- I have a feeling that cheating wives of polygamists aren't smiled upon

    And some women are annoyed by any perceived inequality as well, even if they're raised in such a culture...

    Polygamy wouldn't necissarily leave a person pleased even if they were raised in such a culture- it would depend upon the person and that's why people should always be old enough to pick thier lifestyle for themselves, but THEY SHOULD PICK THIER OWN LIFESTYLE FOR THEMSELVES.

    Including me- and I'd run from polygamy faster than I'd even run towards Pierce Brosnan holding the keys to the worlds most well equipped wine cellar!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #194
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Civil Rights are not won by making concessions in order to "eliminate arguments." Especially since the definition is completely arbitrary and is used as a justification, not an actual argument.

    Consider this. If you could go back to the 1950's when arguably the traditional definition of marriage in about 20 states was "between one man and one woman of the same race", would you tell black people that they should call it something other than marriage? Would you tell them that they should call it something else so all those white people who don't want them to be able to marry white people won't have that one argument? Or would you recognize that anyone who used that argument was simply using it to justify keeping two people of different races from marrying as opposed to actually being an argument?

    No one really cares about the semantics. Saying, "I believe in the traditional definition of marriage" is just a way people get around looking like they are intolerant. It's not an argument.
    There are actually some people out there that don't want gays to be able to marry because they don't like the label 'marriage'.

    If you could go back to the 1950's when arguably the traditional definition of marriage in about 20 states was "between one man and one woman of the same race"
    Not analogous at all. I doubt there were any dictionaries that said that.

    No one really cares about the semantics. Saying, "I believe in the traditional definition of marriage" is just a way people get around looking like they are intolerant. It's not an argument.
    It's not a GOOD argument (to me or you), but it is an argument.

    If you take the premise "marriage is defined as between a man and a women", then two people of the same sex by definition cannot marry. We can't sit around arguing premises, we will never win this one. They define marriage one way, we define it another way. Where's the room for compromise in this sub-argument?

    All I'm saying is that there are some people that are against gay marriage for that reason alone. SOME. If we change the word, we get them on the side of gay rights!

    The more people we get supporting gay rights, the better. And the faster it happens, the better.


    The problem is not a problem with a word. The problem is the fact that gay couples don't have the same rights as straight ones. Focus on the rights, not the word. Who cares about the damn word? Give it to them, what the fuck ever.

    It is our DUTY to do whatever it takes to get rights to gays as quickly as possible. If this step helps (which it blatantly would, although I can't say how much), we have a duty to take it.

  5. #195

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    African Americans only make up about 6.7% of California. Let's say they all voted. Is that enough to tank the marriage vote?
    That's kind of the point. It is mainly a religious thing.

    The article was saying if we discounted the black vote, it would be 50-50.

    Also, even the percentage among blacks itself was skewed by the Yes on 8 campaign sending a late mass-message implying Obama supported Prop 8, when he did not.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  6. #196
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    even if born in a culture where polygamy was the norm, some women have higher sex drives than others. I prefer to get mine 3 times a day. If the man has to please more than one woman there will be less for me. This would be bad- I have a feeling that cheating wives of polygamists aren't smiled upon
    Given how little sex happens between married people, this will either change or you will be fringe (5 deviation from norm, I would guesstimate, from an average of 1/12 what you desire

    that's why people should always be old enough to pick thier lifestyle for themselves, but THEY SHOULD PICK THIER OWN LIFESTYLE FOR THEMSELVES.
    Gee, I haven't said that a whole bunch of times in this thread so far.

    Including me- and I'd run from polygamy faster than I'd even run towards Pierce Brosnan holding the keys to the worlds most well equipped wine cellar!
    I'm sure most westerners would say that, actually.

  7. #197
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    The whole thread is too boring- I just wanted to point out that the idea that sex was more satisfying in a polygamous relationship is rediculous

    The last part wasn't necissarily meant for you either
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #198
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    The whole thread is too boring- I just wanted to point out that the idea that sex was more satisfying in a polygamous relationship is rediculous
    Yeah, that was my reason for responding too. The idea that polygamy would be more sexually satisfying for women is ludicrious.

    I don't really buy that cheating is less common either. If a man wants other women, then he's still going to want other women even when he has three or four laying around at home. If he's been there and done that, then he's still going to wrestle with urges for variety and new conquests and still going to be faced with needing self-discipline to be faithful, whether it is faithfulness to one or five regular wives. Some people cheat for the illicit thrill anyway.

    Whatever drags down monogamy (children, bills, alternate working scehdules, lawn work, in-laws) that's all still going to be there in polygamy. He's still going to at times wish he could be with someone with whom he shares none of this dreary business. I suppose the most common solution would be that he keeps one very young and naive wife who showers him with unquestioning adoration and never has babies with him and he begins to drift away from his other wives. That's how I'd suspect the freedom for polygamy would play out.

  9. #199
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Yeah, that was my reason for responding too. The idea that polygamy would be more sexually satisfying for women is ludicrious.

    I don't really buy that cheating is less common either. If a man wants other women, then he's still going to want other women even when he has three or four laying around at home. If he's been there and done that, then he's still going to wrestle with urges for variety and new conquests and still going to be faced with needing self-discipline to be faithful, whether it is faithfulness to one or five regular wives. Some people cheat for the illicit thrill anyway.
    But what if the guy has more than 100 wives?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #200
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    ^ then they'll all get so little man that THEY'LL all be out cheating!
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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