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  1. #161
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    All I'm saying is that if it's gonna be easier to win calling it something else, we might as well. Functionally equivalent is good enough for me.

    The difference between here and other countries is the massive power of fundamentalist christianity.
    The only reason fundamentalist Christians would even consider letting gays have the right to something equivalent to marriage is because gays are asking for marriage. Hence, if gays and gay rights supporters want something equivalent to marriage for gays, they will still need to fight for gay marriage. So it doesn't really matter what is "easier to win," the battle will still be the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  2. #162
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    The only reason fundamentalist Christians would even consider letting gays have the right to something equivalent to marriage is because gays are asking for marriage. Hence, if gays and gay rights supporters want something equivalent to marriage for gays, they will still need to fight for gay marriage. So it doesn't really matter what is "easier to win," the battle will still be the same.
    Gah.

    Listen. There is a percentage of people that don't want to allow gay marriage because "marriage is between a man and a woman". If we call it something else, we kill their argument.

    Killing one of their arguments is gonna make this happen more quickly. If it happens more quickly, gays have rights for LONGER. We might as well.


    I personally have no problem calling it marriage, but Jesus, we might as well throw the argument about a definition of a word out.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Gah.

    Listen. There is a percentage of people that don't want to allow gay marriage because "marriage is between a man and a woman". If we call it something else, we kill their argument.

    Killing one of their arguments is gonna make this happen more quickly. If it happens more quickly, gays have rights for LONGER. We might as well.

    I personally have no problem calling it marriage, but Jesus, we might as well throw the argument about a definition of a word out.
    Marriage is a social convention. That means it can and has evolved with time. Ask the African Americans that weren't allowed to marry Caucasians. Social conventions aren't set in stone, and by their very nature are suppose to reflect the current time period.

    We don't do all those silly rituals of the 1800s. Why? They aren't relevant anymore.

    Same with the XX/XY stance.

  4. #164
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Marriage is a social convention. That means it can and has evolved with time. Ask the African Americans that weren't allowed to marry Caucasians. Social conventions aren't set in stone, and by their very nature are suppose to reflect the current time period.

    We don't do all those silly rituals of the 1800s. Why? They aren't relevant anymore.

    Same with the XX/XY stance.
    And that applies to my argument how?

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    And that applies to my argument how?
    Men/Women stance, isn't solid.

  6. #166
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Men/Women stance, isn't solid.
    Huh?

    You must misunderstand my stance.

    My whole point is this -- there are people out there that say "marriage is between a man and a woman". Those people vote against gay marriage. If you called it some other thing, those people would have no stance anymore.

    If you want gay couples to have the same rights as straight couples, you gotta get rid of the arguments people have against gay rights. That's one of them. Change the word, and you kill their argument.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't call it gay marriage. I'm totally fine with people of the same sex marrying. I think the people that are against gay marriage are a bunch of closed-minded assholes. But damn, if we want gay rights, and we want them fast, we should eliminate all of the arguments they have. This specific argument is easy. We might as well give them the fucking definition of marriage if it makes gay people have rights more quickly.

  7. #167
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    My whole point is this -- there are people out there that say "marriage is between a man and a woman". Those people vote against gay marriage. If you called it some other thing, those people would have no stance anymore.
    Civil Rights are not won by making concessions in order to "eliminate arguments." Especially since the definition is completely arbitrary and is used as a justification, not an actual argument.

    Consider this. If you could go back to the 1950's when arguably the traditional definition of marriage in about 20 states was "between one man and one woman of the same race", would you tell black people that they should call it something other than marriage? Would you tell them that they should call it something else so all those white people who don't want them to be able to marry white people won't have that one argument? Or would you recognize that anyone who used that argument was simply using it to justify keeping two people of different races from marrying as opposed to actually being an argument?

    No one really cares about the semantics. Saying, "I believe in the traditional definition of marriage" is just a way people get around looking like they are intolerant. It's not an argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    My whole point is this -- there are people out there that say "marriage is between a man and a woman". Those people vote against gay marriage. If you called it some other thing, those people would have no stance anymore.
    They have no stance, even on the basis of definition. Social convention isn't fixed or unchanging.

  9. #169
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    Jon Stewart debated Mike Huckabee on the Daily show over gay marriage less than a month ago.

    Whether you hate, or love Jon stewart, he is quite good at verbally trapping his opponents and getting to the heart of the issue. Although Huckabee wouldnt come out and say it, the entirity of the anti-gay marriage argument lies in religion, period. The instition of marriage has been redefined plenty before, this isn't even debatable! We do not arrange marriages, make marriages for property, forbid inter racial marriages and among other things that simply do not stand up to the current society.

    If we are going to be a theocracy then fine, but at least be upfront about it.

  10. #170

    Default Some intersting data

    Summary of Findings: Gay Marriage a Voting Issue, But Mostly for Opponents

    (as a caveat, prior to 2004)

    Gay marriage has surpassed other major social issues like abortion and gun control in its influence on voters. Four-in-ten voters say they would not vote for a candidate who disagrees with them on gay marriage, even if they agree with the candidate on most other issues. By comparison, 34% say they would not support a candidate who disagrees with them on abortion and 32% expressed that opinion about a candidate's stance on gun control.

    Yet while gay marriage has a greater overall impact on voters than either abortion or gun control, the nature of its influence is quite different. For the most part, gay marriage is a make-or-break voting issue only to the opponents of that idea; supporters of gay marriage generally say a candidate's stance would not affect their vote. Moreover, even among gay marriage opponents, the issue has a disproportionate impact on some groups notably conservative Republicans, evangelical Christians and voters age 65 and older.

    The latest Pew Research Center national survey shows that voters oppose gay marriage by more than two-to-one (65%-28%), a margin that has remained generally steady since October. (This survey was conducted Feb. 11-16, prior to President Bush's Feb. 24 announcement that he would support a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage). (This analysis based on registered voters only; topline based on general public.)

    Other recent national surveys have found that, in spite of the broad opposition to gay marriage, the public is divided over a constitutional amendment to ban the practice. An ABC News/Washington Post poll conducted Feb. 18-22 showed that 46% support a constitutional amendment while 45% believe it should be up to each state to make its own laws regarding homosexual marriage.

    Further, despite the current furor over gay marriage, the public generally does not view a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage as a top national priority. In the Pew Research Center's annual poll of priorities for the president and Congress, conducted in January before events in Massachusetts and San Francisco gave more prominence to the issue, just 22% of Americans said passing a constitutional amendment to prohibit gay marriages was a top priority. The issue ranked 21st out of 22 items tested.


    Gay Marriage and Voting

    Yet it is also the case that gay marriage evokes intense feelings *especially from staunch opponents of the practice. Nearly half of voters (45%) strongly oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally. As a point of comparison, just three-in-ten voters strongly oppose making it more difficult to get an abortion, while 17% strongly favor tighter abortion restrictions.

    These intense sentiments are driving the voting decisions of many gay marriage opponents. About a third of voters (34%) say they would not support a candidate who favors gay marriage, even if they agree with the candidate on most other issues. By comparison, just 6% of voters say they would not back a candidate who opposes gay marriage, even if the candidate is otherwise acceptable. The impact of abortion and gun control on voting decisions is much more mixed: comparable percentages of voters who favor and oppose abortion rights, and gun control, say they would not vote for a candidate who disagrees with their position.

    Six-in-ten Republican voters (61%) strongly oppose gay marriage, and half would not vote for a candidate who disagrees with them on the issue, even if they agree with the candidate's positions on most other matters. Similarly, two-thirds of white evangelical Protestant voters (67%) strongly oppose gay marriage; more than half (55%) say they would not back a candidate who does not share that opinion, even if the candidate's other positions are acceptable. Opposition to gay marriage is far less of a factor in the voting decisions of white Catholics and non-evangelical Protestants.

    A solid majority of voters age 65 and older also express strong opposition to gay marriage (60%). In fact, opposition to gay marriage is nearly as important for these voters as it is for Republicans (45% vs. 50%). There are major differences among age groups over this issue. Just 23% of voters under age 30 say they would not for a candidate who supports gay marriage, even if they agree with the candidate on other issues.

    [...]
    The tables and more of the article are at the link provided.

    The data seems to suggest that it is more of a voting issue for those who oppose gay-marriage--with additional trends that those who are more likely to oppose gay marriage as a wedge issue are republican voters, older voters, evangelical voters, less educated voters...
    and white voters--yes that's what pew research shows (not the black vote as people have suggested), though the percentage difference is likely too small to be significant (the significance levels aren't mentioned).

    This was for the previous election, however.

    CBS Poll for 2008 election:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/MAYB-GAYMARRIAGE.pdf
    So what's really the big deal about Gay marriage?-sex-marriage-issue-jpg

    There is no race related data here but the trends of rebublican, older, evangelical, less educated voters still hold.

    The data (in the pdf) also shows that as time goes on, the pro-same-sex-marriage issue is gaining popularity.

    So I did find stats for the CA 2008 election finally:
    Political Radar: Did Blacks Tank Gay Marriage in California?

    70-30 among Affrican Americans, but the article cautions against drawing too much from that.
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