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  1. #1
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    Default Livni: Israeli Arabs should move to Palestine once state created

    When asked by a students why Israel continues to endanger itself in the face of Hamas when the Islamist group refuses to release captured soldier Gilad Shalit, Livni said: "If people think I can just go an release Gilad Shalit or that the government can, but just doesn?t want to, it's not true."

    "The government must be responsible for the soldiers it sends out. We all want to avoid fatalities but part of what it means to fight is that we have no other choice. We can't also bring everyone home," she said.

    Last month, Livni infuriated Israeli Arab lawmakers when she said: It must be clear to everyone that the State of Israel is a national homeland for the Jewish people."

    At the time, Livni added that the national demands of Israeli Arabs should end the moment a Palestinian state is established.

    In response to Livni's comments, Culture, Sports and Science Minister Ghaleb Majadele said, "The roots of the Israeli Arab citizens of Israel were planted before the state was established. They are residents of this country with rights; their residency and citizenship are not open for negotiation."

    "Anyone who raises the idea of transferring the Arab population in Israel to the territories of the state of Palestine is anti-democractic," the Israeli Arab minister added.

    Source.


    What I still cannot understand is why the west seems to support Israeli racism, or at least; they really don't mind it.
    The path towards apartheid is clear, and now Livni has made it obvious.

  2. #2
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post

    Source.


    What I still cannot understand is why the west seems to support Israeli racism, or at least; they really don't mind it.
    The path towards apartheid is clear, and now Livni has made it obvious.
    Actually, according to that article Livni is advocating second-class citizenship (at least in spirit) for the Israeli Arabs, much as the European nation-states define most of their countries as the "national state" of such and such ethnicity. In practice, Israeli Arabs already are second-class citizens, but not even remotely close to the level of black people under apartheid or segregation. The overall reason that people in the United States (Europe tends to be much more pro-palestinian) are more forgiving of Jewish "racism" (aside from guilt over not doing anything to stop the holocaust) is because Arabs can live very well (albeit as second-class citizens) in Israel while Jews are practically unable to live-period-in Arab countries.

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    "Once a Palestinian state is established, I can come to the Palestinian citizens, whom we call Israeli Arabs, and say to them 'you are citizens with equal rights, but the national solution for you is elsewhere,'" Livni was quoted by Army Radio as saying to students at a Tel Aviv high school.

    "The idea is to maintain two states for two peoples, that is my path to a democratic nation," she added.
    No, that's not how the Europeans define it, countries in Europe are not based on ethnicity. I always heard pro-Israelis claiming Israel is not a racist nation, that there are arabs in Israel that are equal citizens with the Jews. And these claims are clearly flawed.

    Jews are able to live in Arab countries, Israelis are not. I can only speak for Lebanon, and it's for security reasons. We're at 'war' with Israel, it would be suicide to let Israelis in unsupervised.

  4. #4
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    What I still cannot understand is why the west seems to support Israeli racism, or at least; they really don't mind it.
    The path towards apartheid is clear, and now Livni has made it obvious.
    $ and extremely powerful lobbyists
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  5. #5
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    No, that's not how the Europeans define it, countries in Europe are not based on ethnicity. I always heard pro-Israelis claiming Israel is not a racist nation, that there are arabs in Israel that are equal citizens with the Jews. And these claims are clearly flawed.

    Jews are able to live in Arab countries, Israelis are not. I can only speak for Lebanon, and it's for security reasons. We're at 'war' with Israel, it would be suicide to let Israelis in unsupervised.
    How do you think the term "nation-state" came into being? As an example of the way this basic concept works, Romania is the "national state" of Romanians, while the ethnic Hungarian citizens of Romania have equal rights as the citizens belonging to the titular (i.e ethnic Romanian) nation. This is what Livni was saying (though as I said, Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens in fact as well as spirit).

    As for Jews living in Arab countries, why do you think hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews left the Arab countries after the creation of Israel? Living conditions were made unbearable for them.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 12-11-2008 at 08:49 PM. Reason: clarification and grammer

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    How do you think the term "nation-state" came into being? As an example of the way this basic concept works, Romania is the "national state" of Romanians, while the ethnic Hungarian citizens of Romania have equal rights as the citizens belonging to the titular (i.e ethnic Romanian) nation. This is what Livni was saying (though as I said, Israeli Arabs are second-class citizens in fact as well as spirit).

    As for Jews living in Arab countries, why do you think hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews left the Arab countries after the creation of Israel? Living conditions were made unbearable for them.
    She's saying the national solution for them is ELSEWHERE, which means outside Israel. That's not how the ethnic Hungarians are treated in Romania.

    The number of jews in Lebanon increased since the creation of Israel. they only started leaving during the civil war, that's when every Lebanese was trying to flee regardless of their sect. The conditions were made easier for Jews, so they all practically left. we still got like less then a hundred really old Jews here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    $ and extremely powerful lobbyists
    Most probably, and it's the Jewish lobbyists' right to do so.
    But my question was mostly to the normal citizens that seem to be very indifferent towards the Palestinians' rights -Of course not all of them- while they take very harsh stances when it comes to Israeli citizen's rights.

  8. #8
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    She's saying the national solution for them is ELSEWHERE, which means outside Israel. That's not how the ethnic Hungarians are treated in Romania.

    Edit: this part is me
    The "national solution" as in the titular national state of the Palestinian Arabs, just as Hungary is regarded as the titular national state of all ethnic Hungarians, regardless of where they live as citizens. In other words, the Israeli Arabs are "citizens with equal rights" (I notice you failed to mention that portion of the article), but Israel is formally designated as the national state of the Jewish people.
    Edit:end

    The number of jews in Lebanon increased since the creation of Israel. they only started leaving during the civil war, that's when every Lebanese was trying to flee regardless of their sect. The conditions were made easier for Jews, so they all practically left. we still got like less then a hundred really old Jews here.
    As I've mentioned to you elsewhere, the peculiar political status quo of Lebanon (which eventually lead to that Civil War) made that country something of an exceptional case. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of Sephardic Jews were driven from Arab and Middle-Eastern countries after the creation of Israel.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 12-11-2008 at 11:55 PM. Reason: screwed up the quote

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    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Aren't Sephardic Jews seen as the lower class of Jew even in Israel?
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  10. #10
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Aren't Sephardic Jews seen as the lower class of Jew even in Israel?
    For a while, yes. Kind of like how Celts were looked down upon during colonial America. Things are changing, now.

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