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  1. #21
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't think most (educated) people's problem with Israel is that it's a Jewish State...it was the manner and location of its creation.
    Where do you think such a Jewish State should have been created?

    In the middle of the Gulag camps, like Stalin thought with Birobidjan?
    Frankly??
    In what was the former Yiddishland, with Auschwitz as its capital?
    (Or maybe Manhattan should declare its independence?)

    You know, every words you may use when you refer to Jews show a direct geographic link. So why should you ignore it?

    Jew => Judea
    Israelite => Israel
    Hebrew => "those who have crossed the Jordan river"

    There wasn't plenty of choices. The current location is in fact quite obvious: Jews from everywhere and every centuries tried everytime to settle there, until they were eventually slaughtered by foreign invaders, whether by the Romans, the Byzantine empire, the Arabs, the Turks, the Christian Crusaders, the Turks again... and so on.

    Everytime, they came back.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #22
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    They're not disagreeing on where the Jews think they have a right to go, they're just saying the way in which Israel was created is why they have the problems they do, and Israel's sense of entitlement did nothing to help solve those problems. In ANY other culture, the world would see a nation state created in Israel's manner borderline criminal and unethical.

    Also, throwing out "antisemitism" at everybody because they may have an issue means you don't have any good arguments, and people will take you less seriously.



  3. #23
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    They're not disagreeing on where the Jews think they have a right to go, they're just saying the way in which Israel was created is why they have the problems they do, and Israel's sense of entitlement did nothing to help solve those problems. In ANY other culture, the world would see a nation state created in Israel's manner borderline criminal and unethical.
    "Borderline criminal and unethical"? Why?

    The creation of Israel is a very complex and tricky question, and both Jewish and Arab extremists behaved quite "unethically", to say the least.
    But you think you can solve it and unilaterally blame one side against the other?
    Good for you, because I think this knot can't be untied that easily.

    (Besides, do you want to compare with what happened to former Yugoslavia?)

    Also, throwing out "antisemitism" at everybody because they may have an issue means you don't have any good arguments, and people will take you less seriously.
    I say this is antisemitism not because I enjoy using that word, but because this is a true phenomenon, and unfortunately, it's quite common, you should not avoid this obvious fact. Should I show you statistics about the rise of antisemitism in Europe and the muslim world?

    And denying the right of Israel to exist is almost everytime a sheer expression of antisemitism, I'm sorry.

    Comparing this state to the Apartheid regime is not having an "issue" with Israel, it's LIES and HATE. You should go there and check for instance how does the Israeli Arab population of Haifa live.
    I've never said Israel is paradise, it is not. It is only an average democracy, with average and (most often) very mediocre issues.

    But you can't compel this state to behave a lot better ethically than most other western democracies: it will not. You know, 20% of the Knesset seats are occupied by Arab MPs. When there will be at least 10% of Black, Asian or Indian MPs in the House of Commons, then maybe England could try to teach a lesson of democracy to Israel. But before that, it shouldn't.

    When so many people ask of Israel what no other governments on earth would accept, you should ask yourself why.

    When so many people obsessively lie about Israel and the Jews, you should also ask yourself why.

    Why did Nihilen lie about what Tzipi Livni really said, for instance?

    I'm sorry, I do not call that a mere "issue". You have another word for that.

    ---

    Anyway.

    We could have a debate about borders, about how to find peace, about how to make things better both in Israel and Palestine, how life could be improved for everyone. It will only be a slow process, unfortunately. We might disagree, but we also might not be. But lies and hate have nothing to do with this, and it's pointless to spread them, unless... unless...

    You see what I mean?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #24
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    ^
    Typical.



    Freak show is over. Moving on...

  5. #25
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    This is simple Nihilen:

    If you want to create a free Palestinian state, then fine, it's not antisemitism. Not at all. Indeed, it would only be a political issue, and we can discuss it.

    But if you want to eradicate Israel during the process, then it is antisemitism.

    And don't say I'm trying to silence you, I'm not.

    You're only trying to flee what's obvious.

    Again, you have lied about what Tzipi Livni really said. Why?

    ----

    Imagine that I would be in favor to wipe out every Arab states in the world, because Arabs are inherently "racists", and "violents", and "thieves"... and so on. Then you would say that I have "more than an issue" with Arabs. And you would be right indeed...

    Now, try to replace the word "Arab" with "Hebrew" and check the result.

    Try to use some logic while you still can (since you pretend to be an INTP).
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #26
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    "Borderline criminal and unethical"? Why?
    Because an ethnic group moved into a plot of land with permission from the tenant, then declared the land their own, the tenant turned a blind eye, and the previous occupants who had lived there for generations were tossed out with the justification that their deity said it belonged to them anyways.
    The creation of Israel is a very complex and tricky question, and both Jewish and Arab extremists behaved quite "unethically", to say the least.
    But you think you can solve it and unilaterally blame one side against the other?
    Good for you, because I think this knot can't be untied that easily.
    I never said any of those things. I'm not going to excuse either side. But what a lot of people do, is blame the Palestinians for everything. Nobody wants to say Israel shares half the blame. When you do, you get labeled as...


    I say this is antisemitism not because I enjoy using that word, but because this is a true phenomenon, and unfortunately, it's quite common, you should not avoid this obvious fact.
    Antisemitic.

    And denying the right of Israel to exist is almost everytime a sheer expression of antisemitism, I'm sorry.
    Nobody here is condemning Israel's existence, but in the way it came about existing, and how it has led to the problems now. It exists, and has done so for the better half of a century.


    We could have a debate about borders, about how to find peace, about how to make things better both in Israel and Palestine, how life could be improved for everybody. It will only be a slow process, unfortunately. We might disagree, but we also might not be. But lies and hate have nothing to do with this, and it's pointless to spread them, unless... unless...

    You see what I mean?
    According to Israel's Foreign Minister hoping for the PM job, that solution happens to be creating a Palestinian nation state, which is garbage. It allows Israel to have whatever civil rights infractions they want, because they can just say "Oh well you have your own state just live there if you don't like it here."

    Lies and hate had nothing to do with this conversation until you started accusing everyone that such were their motives.



  7. #27
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Because an ethnic group moved into a plot of land with permission from the tenant, then declared the land their own, the tenant turned a blind eye, and the previous occupants who had lived there for generations were tossed out with the justification that their deity said it belonged to them anyways.
    You really seem very ignorant how much more complex the problem was.


    1) Most palestinians occupied this land quite recently, barely one century before the bulk of european Jews came. Most of them came from Syria and Egypt. Check for instance Arafat: he was born in Egypt, and his family is from Cairo.


    2) This land was heavily depopulated because many times throughout history, the Jewish population was almost entirely wiped out (and this was the case during the 17th century, when the Ottomans "cleansed" the followers of Sabbatai). But they came back, and came back, and came back, and kept coming back every time thay had the opportunity to do so.


    3) When the Zionist movement was founded, it had nothing to do with a religious agenda. It was only a political movement (Its founder, Theodor Herzl, reacted because of the Dreyfus affair, not because God ordered him to conquer the Holy Land!). And Israel is among the few countries which have no state religion whatsoever.
    Today, almost half of Israeli Jews say they are either atheists or agnostics.

    This conflict is considered as "religious" mostly for the Muslim side. But for the Jews, it's only a matter of political and physical survival (unless for a sectarian extremist minority, like you have in every Western nation of the world) .


    4) The process you describe happened several times in the world, even today, and yet I'd say I do not see many Muslims fighting for the right of the Papu people in Irian Jaya, especially when you know that the Indonesian constitution allow to kill them on sight because they are "animists" (Just like the Quran says!). I'm still wondering why people are so obsessed with Israelis in particular. Any idea?
    Furthermore, it happened both ways between Arabs and Jews. Every Arab states expelled their own Jews exactly the same way as you describe. And there were twice as much Sephardic refugees (more than 900.000), than there were Palestinian ones (430.000).
    I do not say this process is fair and ethical, but it happened everywhere: In India and Pakistan too, for instance, yet nobody would dare to say India is an illegitimate country (I hope so!). After WWII, dozens of millions of people were expelled from their homes in Europe, mostly Germans and Poles... And yet this situation never escalated into an open armed conflict. Many countries in Europe are in fact quite artificial: Slovakia, Albania and Moldavia for instance. Do you think we should wipe them out? Because you know, one century ago, most Slovakians used to lived outside what is now modern Slovakia (which was mostly populated by Hungarians, then [and Ashkenazi Jews!]). And in Albania, you had a majority of Greek and Romanians christian orthodox. But they were "cleansed" by the Ottoman army just before 1913. And in Moldavia, the Russian minority came only during the last decades. Yet I hope Romania will not try to annex Moldavia and the Transnistria by force.

    The only country that behaved "ethically" eventually disintegrated because it never succeeded to become a true nation-state: it was the former Yugoslavia. So you see: History as a whole is never fair, but we can only try to correct its most horrendous aspects.

    Just to add a little touch of complexity and show you that things were less black and white than what you might expect, you should also be aware that in 1947 the Bedu tribes of the Negev sided with Israel against Palestinians, and thus were fully integrated as Israeli citizens in return.


    5) You have to bear in mind that after WWII, the Jewish survivors of the Holocaust had nowhere to go. They didn't choose to occupy or settle in Israel, they simply had no other options left if they wanted to survive. So you can't say it was colonization, because such conscious process would require a metropole (like England for Australia). Again, the reason why they had to go there wasn't religious AT ALL (I think you have seen too much Arab channels propaganda about the extremist religious settlers : but in fact, those mad ones only make about 3% of Israeli population).

    So you see, there was a great dilemma since not creating Israel was unfair, but creating Israel was unfair too somehow. There was no "ethical" possible choice left, just to show you the complexity of the situation, then.

    At last, I hope you can remember that in 1947, it was the Arabs who attacked the Jews and adamantly refused any UN mediation.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #28
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Where do you think such a Jewish State should have been created?

    In the middle of the Gulag camps, like Stalin thought with Birobidjan?
    Frankly??
    In what was the former Yiddishland, with Auschwitz as its capital?
    (Or maybe Manhattan should declare its independence?)

    You know, every words you may use when you refer to Jews show a direct geographic link. So why should you ignore it?

    Jew => Judea
    Israelite => Israel
    Hebrew => "those who have crossed the Jordan river"

    There wasn't plenty of choices. The current location is in fact quite obvious: Jews from everywhere and every centuries tried everytime to settle there, until they were eventually slaughtered by foreign invaders, whether by the Romans, the Byzantine empire, the Arabs, the Turks, the Christian Crusaders, the Turks again... and so on.

    Everytime, they came back.
    Yet, with the exception of Jerusalem, they created the borders in Arab land. It's like taking Scotland and turning it into a Gypsy Nation-State. If Israel can support themselves there, more power to them, but they wouldn't last the year without American support and we throw exorbitant amounts of resources at them at the expense of Middle Eastern relations. I would be happier if all the Jews just moved to the U.S. instead. After all, most of the leaders in Israel weren't from that area, anyways.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #29
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Yet, with the exception of Jerusalem, they created the borders in Arab land. It's like taking Scotland and turning it into a Gypsy Nation-State. If Israel can support themselves there, more power to them, but they wouldn't last the year without American support and we throw exorbitant amounts of resources at them at the expense of Middle Eastern relations. I would be happier if all the Jews just moved to the U.S. instead. After all, most of the leaders in Israel weren't from that area, anyways.
    I fear it's quite untrue.

    Again, the situation is far more complex than that, and I think you should read carefully what I just wrote before you.

    1) There always was a significant Jewish population in this territory during the last millenias. Those Jews just didn't pop out of nowhere, you know.
    There might be a reason why there are here...

    2) Most of the Jews that fled to Israel never had a choice. The Jews that emigrated to America during the 19th century were the richest or the luckiest ones. For the others, you only had... Israel or death.

    3) Scotland has been inhabited by Scots for millenias too, while Palestine became populated by modern-day palestinians mostly during the 19th century.

    4) Israel managed to survive and win most of its wars without any American military help. In fact, the alliance treaty only became a reality during the Reagan era (and very shortly in 1973). Furthermore, the USA are currently sending more military equipment to Arab states than in Israel [And that doesn't include Iraq].
    I think it's very important that America supports Israel (yet we should discuss this, because again, it's a very complex history, with lots of unwanted side effects: For instance I can't say the Bush administration had a good influence on Israel, since it backed up only the most extreme "falcons"), but don't over estimate the role of your country.
    Economically, Israel imports 12.4% of its goods from the US, and 39.9% from the European Union.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #30
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    What do you mean by this?
    As I mentioned earlier, the plurality of the population is comprised of Sephardic Jews and their descendants, who were kicked out of the same countries that that had made war against Israel for decades-you can't go back from that. Israel has existed for sixty years, and is primarily populated by people who have either never known any other home, or were desperate refugees from extreme circumstances in the first place. And, as I said, Jews (unlike the Arabs under reversed conditions) would be practically unable to live in an Arab-dominated state.

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