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  1. #11
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    The idea of having a state for the Jewish people is preposterous. It's ethnocentric, it's racist. Anyway, I see what you're saying.

    What lead to civil war in Lebanon was Israel and the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees we had to welcome, for a small country with a fragile sectarian balance, that was devastating.

    Arabs are not one entity, so many Sephardic Jews were driven from Arab countries; what does this have to do with Palestinians ?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Aren't Sephardic Jews seen as the lower class of Jew even in Israel?
    Still one class higher than Ethiopian Jews

  3. #13
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    What lead to civil war in Lebanon was Israel and the hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees we had to welcome, for a small country with a fragile sectarian balance, that was devastating.

    Arabs are not one entity, so many Sephardic Jews were driven from Arab countries; what does this have to do with Palestinians ?
    Didn't the Palestinian refugees arrive in the early eighties? I forget when the PLO began fighting the Jordanian government...

    There are many cultural differences among Arabs, but virtually all of them opposed Israel and contributed to the four wars against its existence. Regarding Israel, they have often coordinated their policies, identifying the Palestinian cause as theirs. Ironically, by expelling the Sephardic population, the Arab countries basically sealed the fate of the Palestinians; they turned the entire conflict into one big "population exchange". In any event, do you seriously think Jews could live well in among an Arab population where half the voters support Hamas?

    Edit: And for the record, I do not think Zionism is a legitimate ideology; Israel has a right to exist because of everything that has happened since its creation, but the Palestinians were just plain screwed.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 12-12-2008 at 12:35 AM. Reason: more to add

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Didn't the Palestinian refugees arrive in the early eighties? I forget when the PLO began fighting the Jordanian government...

    There are many cultural differences among Arabs, but virtually all of them opposed Israel and contributed to the four wars against its existence. Regarding Israel, they have often coordinated their policies, identifying the Palestinian cause as theirs. In any event, do you seriously think Jews could live well in among an Arab population where half the voters support Hamas?
    The Palestinian refugees 'stopped arriving' in the early 80, fluxes started since late 40s.
    Currently most Arab countries are either Neutral towards Israel or are Israel's allies (Jordan, Egypt, KSA, Qatar, etc).
    The whole Hamas hype is a very recent phenomenon, it's a consequence for all the wrong Israeli policies towards the Palestinians. No one likes living under such religious extremist movements, unless they are afraid, mistreated and angry.
    Now, I don't know what's the solution for this, but Israel shouldn't have let it get this far.

    And for the record, I do not think Zionism is a legitimate ideology; Israel has a right to exist because of everything that has happened since its creation, but the Palestinians were just plain screwed.
    Idealistically, I don't believe Israel had a right to exist. But I also don't believe -now- anyone has the right to remove it. It's there, and we have to deal with the situation rationally as it's presented to us.

    We need to find a middle-ground, if the 2-state solution is the most feasible solution, so be it.

  5. #15
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Israel has a right to exist because of everything that has happened since its creation
    What do you mean by this?
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  6. #16
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    As I've mentioned to you elsewhere, the peculiar political status quo of Lebanon (which eventually lead to that Civil War) made that country something of an exceptional case...
    It is not strictly accurate to say Lebanon was or is an exception in this case. Take Iran for example, despite being midst of serious tensions with Israel it has by far the largest Jewish community in the Middle East outside Israel.

    Jews are actually treated remarkably better than one would first think in Iran. Ayatollah Khomeini even gave them constitutional protection, which just like he did for Christians and whatever Zoroastrians are. For that very reason, practices strictly forbidden for Muslims in Iran are sanctioned for Jews; for example, Jews in Iran can drink home-brewed alcohol, go to mixed-sex schools, dance amongst each sex, and are guaranteed a permanent representation in the Iranian parliament.

    The vast majority of the remaining Persian Jews in Iran feel proud of their Iranian culture as well as their Jewish roots; Persian Jews have been living in Iran for the best part of three thousand years, mainly are descendants of slaves saved two and a half thousand years ago by Cyrus II of Persia, and have been historically accepted since for the most part. Persian Jews are politically active in Iran; for example it is not uncommon for them to take part in the International Day of Quds demonstrations, they supported the war effort during the Iran-Iraq war, and Maurice Motamed, a Jewish member of the Iranian Parliament, even claims that the lives of Jews in Iran is far better than that of other Iranians.

    Don't get me wrong, Iran is more or less run by agglomeration of demented freaks, but in my opinion Jews in Iran are not only treated a lot better than Muslims in Israel they are also a lot safer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  7. #17
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilen View Post
    The idea of having a state for the Jewish people is preposterous. It's ethnocentric, it's racist. Anyway, I see what you're saying.
    If what you say is true, then every nation-states on earth are based on a "ethnocentric and racist" idea. France is racist, Russia is racist, China is racist, England is racist, Germany is racist, Japan is racist, Spain is racist, Turkey is racist, Thailand is racist, Nigeria is racist, Indonesia, and every Arab states are racists, et caetera...

    If what you say is true, then you should find the mere existence of Arab states "preposterous and racist".

    ------

    Frankly, what you are saying is only antisemitic nonsense. The Jewish people only want to be an ordinary people, what is wrong with that?
    Owning your own state is a guarantee to survival for most people... Should we ask what do Kurds, Chechens or Tibetans think of that?

    Furthermore, what Livni said was only that Arab nationalists should drop their claim if ever a Palestinian state was created, not that they should flee towards Arab states. That's completely different.

    And yes it's true that being an Israeli Arab is enviable fate. And no, this isn't Apartheid, since as citizens they enjoy exactly the same rights that jewish citizens. I think you simply have NO IDEA what Apartheid really was, and frankly, this is quite insulting to the black people of South Africa.

    According to polls, a majority of Arab Israelis say they would prefer to live under a Jewish democracy that under the average Arab regime, and I think everybody can understand why. Every year, thousands of Arabs flee to Israel, despite what muslim propaganda say. Just go to Tel Aviv or Haifa, and you can see it yourself. Lots of them are gays, for instance, and they could face death charges in their home countries.

    And no, I've been to Iran several times (and Lebanon), and being a Jew in Teheran is simply a living hell, despite everything that had been said. It's true that Iranian people (on average) treat their Jews better than Arabs, but there's nothing to brag about, frankly! Let's say they have the right to live (and be as quiet as possible), which is better than the mass slaughters they would face almost everywhere else (In Morocco, in Irak, in Yemen, in Algeria, in Jordania, in Egypt... Should I make the list of the pogroms that occured there?).

    So please, please... yes please... STOP PROPAGANDA!

    We know you hate the Jews and blame them for every wrong deeds that happen to your country (should we check the polls made in Lebanon?), but it's not a reason to try to pollute people here with your own antisemitic agenda.

    You'll see: the day an Arab majority will accept that a Jewish state has the right to exist, most political problems will vanish. This conflict is mostly Ideological and territorial.

    Anyway, you should try to solve this conflict rather than fuel it. I think enough people have died already, no?

    You know, I'm a member of Shalom Arshav (left-wing pacifists), but reading the same bullshit about Israel and Jews over and over again is sometimes simply depressing. Enough is enough.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-13-2008 at 02:45 PM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #18
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I don't think most (educated) people's problem with Israel is that it's a Jewish State...it was the manner and location of its creation.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If what you say is true, then every nation-states on earth are based on a "ethnocentric and racist" idea. France is racist, Russia is racist, China is racist, England is racist, Germany is racist, Japan is racist, Spain is racist, Turkey is racist, Thailand is racist, Nigeria is racist, Indonesia, and every Arab states are racists, et caetera...

    If what you say is true, then you should find the mere existence of Arab states "preposterous and racist".

    ------

    Frankly, what you are saying is only antisemitic nonsense.
    I stopped reading here. I cannot hold a debate with -or take seriously- someone calling me antisemitic. You are a joke.

    Next.

  10. #20
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Well, I could have said I stopped reading you when you confused Apartheid with the sole and only democracy in the Middle East. You are a joke too, so what do we do next?


    Indeed, it is antisemitism, and you know it, even if it makes you go mad about it.

    It doesn't change anything, and frankly, I'd really wish it was only a joke.

    Why do you want to make an exception for Jews? Why do you consider them as "special people" who should be denied their own nation-state?

    Why do you try to make Tzipi Livni say something she has never said? Your whole thread is a LIE, since she never ever pronounced the words shown in your title.
    When she explains that should a Palestinian state be created, the Palestinian leaders should stop their threats against the existence of Israel, it's simply common sense, there's nothing out of the ordinary or "racist" inside!!
    Even for the hopeless leftist I usually am, I don't see anything strange (even if Livni is NOT my cup of tea).

    It's because of people like you that this conflict lasts so long: one day, you'll have to think about that. You cannot negociate with people who deny your very existence.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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