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  1. #51
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Is that so? I'd like to thank Risen for this one here.... Apparently a bunch of scientists that include Nobel Prize winners and department heads are starting to disagree.
    "WorldNetDaily is a for-profit website that provides primarily evangelical-conservative-oriented news and editorials"


    This whole site is a joke, and the "news" it delivers are so heavily biased I almost gagged with laughters. :yim_rolling_on_the_

    The only Nobel prize winner included in that list is a very old Norwegian man who studied electron tunnelling in semiconductors, some fifty years ago.
    I wouldn't call him an authority figure about climatology, would you?

    So pick the lie you want to believe, frankly, I don't care.
    There's nothing I can do against the strength of an Ideology. As we say in French "Il n'est pire aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir" (The worst blind man is the one who does not want to see). But don't try to teach me my job, please!
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #52
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    "WorldNetDaily is a for-profit website that provides primarily evangelical-conservative-oriented news and editorials"


    This whole site is a joke, and the "news" it delivers are so heavily biased I almost gaged out of laughing. :yim_rolling_on_the_

    The only Nobel prize winner included in that list is a very old Norwegian man who studied electron tunnelling in semiconductors, some fifty years ago.
    I wouldn't call him an authority figure about climatology, would you?

    So pick the lie you want to believe, frankly, I don't care.
    There's nothing I can do against the strength of an Ideology. As we say in French "Il n'est pire aveugle que celui qui ne veut pas voir" (The worst blind man is the one who does not want to see). But don't try to teach me my job, please!
    Good catch! Now why can't you turn that skeptical eye on Warming? What prevents you? The evidence is there, but you do not see. Your allegory about the blind man can easily apply to you, however neither us will relent. Oh well. I will remain on my pedestal of skepticism, and you can remain on yours of belief.



  3. #53
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I will remain on my pedestal of skepticism, and you can remain on yours of belief.
    You have to believe in something when you have no empirical proof whatsoever, just the intuition of it.

    Since you have no proof of what you're talking about, I'd say you are the Believer. If you want to believe, it's fine for you!
    With such Faith, you can live an happy life, and who am I to judge you?

    On the other hand, I have my evidences, I gathered them for years now, and frequently compared them with other field-scientists. Although we may differ on how we should interpret them according to our own models of reality, evidences never lie.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-20-2008 at 09:55 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #54
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Anyone believing the "lists" of people who disagree with global warming, please read HERE
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  5. #55
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    So far it look like that I am on Blackmails side completely, what is probably because I am future geologist and I've spent a lot of time learning about the this topic. Plus my professional knowledge helped me a lot in this.
    I just want to show my background.


    Since people really want to make this a political issue I will give them a political reply.



    Often it is said that Al Gore is hypocritical idiot who is building his political career on this kind of things. People who say something like this will not get a counter argument from me.


    People in US feel accused by left that they are doing something wrong and left is accusing them that they do something wrong exactly because it is good and solid argument. But is this enough to actually debunk argument that in a way is not even in this sphere and it is just used to play political games.


    I think that American public has wrong picture about this and the main reason is that they are exposed to political show that is made just for them.
    Why would someone create so big show about it ?


    Because if global warming is real, we (world) will need to get rid of the fossil fuels.
    Since their consumption creates gases that are causing global warming.
    But what is current geopolitical position of USA?
    Position is that US dollar is main currency for trading with oil. US spends much more then it produces and that is because global oil trade is in $.
    So when someone wants to buy oil for his economy he has to have dollars to do it. What means they have to do business with the US what means that they have to export to the US to get your money.
    Since US is the only one that is allowed to make them it can create more and more of dollars and export them since world needs them to function and in that way US is avoiding inflation and it gets huge amount of good goods technically for free. The main reason why US makes over 50% of world military budget is to make sure that everyone accept the "good deal"


    The only real problem is that some people have shown that oil has one really problematic side effect. It knocks out the balance of the plants climate.


    This is the reason why US (as institution) is so much against the idea because if global warming is true the superiority of US will be lost for sure since its economy will collapse, what is because no one will need their dollars to buy oil and they will need to invest more to get rid of fossil fuels.


    If global warming is true that would be the end of ideology and end to an era of capitalism. Since it would turn out that modern capitalism is flawed as communism and it is ready to take its place in history.


    This is the main reason why political left in many countries supports global warming, exactly because it is so harmful for the US.
    But that does not debunk science that has nothing to do with any of this
    (more of less).

    This was never about global warming it has to do with keeping current political order. That is why there is such a show about this, since people must not doubt the safety of the system which will fall apart if they do.
    This is no different then political campaigns for elections. As a matter of fact same group/type of people stand behind those two shows.
    Everything is based on some arguments and people are choosing sides and every now and then there is some scandal to make it more interesting but this way they only make sure that something real does not come out of it.
    Here is one example: Take a look at Obama, he was promoted as a messiah, someone who will make the greatest shift to the left in the last 50% years, as someone who will make people proud and..........
    He did not even have his inauguration and it already look like that he is not what he seemed to be.


    In short we are playing games created by those who are experts for this.
    We are talking about forged signatures, what someone said here and said there, who was he/she when he was a student, how much money and/or does he/she has etc....

    All of this has nothing to do with global warming.

    Real global warming talk includes: Amount of phytoplankton in oceans, deforestation ratio per each country, birth rate, analysis of consumption rates, crystalography ,chemical composition of rocks and amount of particular isotopes in them, sub-molecular dynamics of gases, fossil record, analysis of plant growth and global food supply, thermodynamics, analysis of landslides and their dynamics and ............. (list is long)


    Unless you do this you are not saying anything. You are just saying what someone said that someone said and quoting news papers articles and political interviews that are shown on TV.
    But I gave you one very good reason why all of this is just a game.


    You never even come close to global warming debate since actual talking about it takes years of learning about it so that you can actually say something. Plus you must know something about scientific areas that are bordering this one.

  6. #56
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Look, there is strong evidence supporting warming. And that's fine. But unfortunately I cannot get behind a science that has so many political and economic themes behind it. The green movement is a business. Don't tell me it's not. Warming is a becoming a political talking point, which is bad. Because at that point, scientific reports deteriorate into one line "impact" statements, exaggerated predictions for effect, and worst of all, the only way you can get funding for climate study is if you're trying to confirm warming. How many institutions are going to fund a study with a hypothesis that contradicts a new political-business model?

    Forgive me though, if I am unwilling to trust certain "science". This is an article detailing how NASA's GISS institute used temperature records from August and September in Russia's October period, which accounted for Russia being labeled as 10 degrees warmer than normal, and allowed GISS to declare October the warmest October on record. Several skeptics pointed this out, GISS fixed the error but miraculously found a new "hot spot" in the Arctic, which is odd since satellite imagery showed sea ice recovering 30 percent more extensive than the same time period last year.

    To anyone in the science field, this should be extremely disturbing. GISS is 1 of 4 sources used by the UN's IPCC to promote its warming cause, and they essentially lied. And tried to cover it up. How is that science? Any other source institution would be audited and/or discredited at such an error.

    My stance on warming? It's been getting warmer since 1970. Human land use has exponentially increased and most definitely has local contributions to temperature. Fossil fuels are not sustainable. We've had nuclear fusion and fission and we still haven't ushered it in as a viable energy source for 50 years, which is appalling. Much of that reason is because oil is such a large business, and has significant presence in governments around the world. I am for energy and consumption reform, if and only if it represents an economic and quality of life improvement for people. We should take care of the earth, because it is our home. But doing so and making policy decisions based on public scare tactics and doomsday predictions is disingenuous and makes a mockery of science. We have no idea how the climate works, and any complex system with the amount of variables, factors, and influences it has is inherently chaotic and unpredictable. I believe our current climate science is designed for explaining past and current climate activity, but it is not equipped to make accurate predictions.



  7. #57
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    You are once again shooting at political part of this story. You are doing exactly what I said you are doing. You are quoting newspapers articles and what someone said.

    The problem with global warming is that it is huge problem and is counter-inutive in its nature. The way how public imagines this problem is totally false.


    You are talking about cold waves that are happening all over the planet and you use it as a argument.
    I will tell you are secret: That is exactly what should be happening if world is getting warmer.

    Here is a part of one of my old post that is also the answer to the OP


    But there is also one more catch. In school they teach you that water freezes at 0C and start to evaporate at 100C. In real world that is not 100% true. I am sure that all of you that live far from equator and on coasts, have seen that entire coast was beneath snow or ice which is not melting but the sea is completely ice free.
    This is because there are solved minerals in sea mostly it is salt but there are many others and that means sea can be liquid below 0C plus pressure play its part in this as well.
    So this means that when Arctic sea is melting, water created in that process is colder then 0C and it falls to the bottom and starts its long stealthy travel. Water in oceans is circulating constantly by the way. But this water is very cold and it will cool all water which it comes across and drastically reduce temperature of the ocean that way. Then oceans reduce temperature of the atmosphere and you suddenly all over the northern hemisphere have conditions like that new ice age is coming. Skeptics enjoy when this happens.
    This happened in 2007 and it is happening now in 2008 since in both years there is/was the drastic melt of ice in Arctic ocean in summer months.
    That provides cold water for this process and it takes sometime for cold water to be distributed around the world.

    The reason why there is so much controversy is because it is a huge problem and ordinary people don't have a chance to figure this one themselfs.


    This Is just a small and simple part of the story I could say much more.

  8. #58
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Did you read my last paragraph? I don't pretend to have the answer, I'm just saying there are other factors besides actual science behind the warming issue, and because of that it is difficult to trust the science itself. And I'm fully aware that a warming trend will precede an ice age. I'm just saying we as a species do not know enough about climate to make outrageous predictions and to release studies and declare them anything other than correlation trends is asinine, and bad science.

    I don't disagree that there are global changes in temperature. But there's a lot of changes. There always has been. I'm all for more responsible land use and more efficiency in energy consumption. But not because of some moral issue than predicts disaster if we don't change our evil ways.



  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You are once again shooting at political part of this story. You are doing exactly what I said you are doing. You are quoting newspapers articles and what someone said.

    The problem with global warming is that it is huge problem and is counter-inutive in its nature. The way how public imagines this problem is totally false.


    You are talking about cold waves that are happening all over the planet and you use it as a argument.
    I will tell you are secret: That is exactly what should be happening if world is getting warmer.

    Here is a part of one of my old post that is also the answer to the OP




    This happened in 2007 and it is happening now in 2008 since in both years there is/was the drastic melt of ice in Arctic ocean in summer months.
    That provides cold water for this process and it takes sometime for cold water to be distributed around the world.

    The reason why there is so much controversy is because it is a huge problem and ordinary people don't have a chance to figure this one themselfs.


    This Is just a small and simple part of the story I could say much more.
    Dear man-made global warming believers,

    I've had enough. Do you know what's also true!? That isame freaking ice has had record BUILD UP in the winter months, regardless of how much it melted in the summer. Do you know what else is true? It's been getting COLDER since 2007, and it damn sure has been getting colder in 2008. And yet, you people are sitting here telling the world "global cooling is only evidence that the world is getting warmer" WTF happened to you when you were children, because this crap sounds like something only a dope smoking, mentally retarded crack fiend could ever spew from their mouths. It's like saying "The freezing water is only evidence that it's about to boil". What mother flipping basis does any person with even a single neuron beneath their puss filled skull have to believe that man-made CO2 could cause a runaway greenhouse effect when the data clearly shows only a marginal correlation between CO2 and temperatures in the geological data, most importantly with the CO2 FOLLOWING TEMPERATURE INCREASES NOT CAUSING THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!! It does not cause temperature increases! For there to be a causal relationship, that factored has to appear BEFORE the effect. That doesn't efing happen besides in your own puss filled imagination. Added to the fact that CO2 accounts for such a low percentage of the gases in the atmosphere, our contribution to that percentage is even more minuscule, and CO2 is one of the WEAKEST greenhouse gases in the freaking atmosphere. The only science you man made global warming believers have is the shitty pool of facts spoon fed to you by ever scientist with a wad of special interest, environmentalist, political agenda driven money plugged up his ass. If that's what YOU want to BELIEVE in, then go ahead. But don't expect the people with even the most atomically small measure of common sense and REAL scientific knowledge to go along with your bull crap.

    ***END RANT***

    ***I Promise I wont do that again***

    With that said, yes, I do believe in climate change. It has happened since the beginning of this planet, and will continue to change. If you so arrogantly want to believe that your presence is the cause of the world ending, then go ahead. Mother earth will dump on you with her continued cycles of warming and cooling/ice ages whether you like it or not.

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