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  1. #11
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Oh well. My questions to the warming people are "Why would you ever think a complex system like Global Climate would EVER stay the same and never deviate" and "How do you get around the fact that Global Warming represents a net benefit to life on the planet."
    I believe another ice age would be far more destructive to human civilization than the most recent warming trend (which appears to have tapered off). And we're going to have another ice age, regardless of what mankind does to the atmosphere. Sure, glaciers over Minneapolis might sound fun, until you actually have to live it.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #12
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    Ugh...its snowing.
    How can you not welcome that shit with open arms? You get to see that stuff how often in Houston? Like once every never?

  3. #13
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Damn, it just now started snowing here and I'm like 4 hours directly north.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #14
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    How can you not welcome that shit with open arms? You get to see that stuff how often in Houston? Like once every never?
    LOL normally I would but I just started this new job and I work in an open warehouse that only has 3 heaters to warm the entire thing.

    I like the cold, but I aint used to this shit. If I wanted snow id travel.
    SDMF

  5. #15
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Global Warming proponents will tell you local cooling doesn't disprove Global Warming. And then they provide local warming details.
    Just to clarify a bit... "Global Warming" really means something more along the lines of "more weather extremes in general, with an *overall* average increase in temperature." Harsher winter storms do fall within the expected pattern of "global warming."

    Of course, one storm in Houston means nothing in the overall scheme of things. Unless you're in auto-body repair, in which case you're probably pretty happy about now . I was once in Seattle in a snowstorm, and it was a complete mess... I can only imagine how much worse it would be in Houston.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Just to clarify a bit... "Global Warming" really means something more along the lines of "more weather extremes in general, with an *overall* average increase in temperature." Harsher winter storms do fall within the expected pattern of "global warming."

    Of course, one storm in Houston means nothing in the overall scheme of things. Unless you're in auto-body repair, in which case you're probably pretty happy about now . I was once in Seattle in a snowstorm, and it was a complete mess... I can only imagine how much worse it would be in Houston.
    Wow. Change the definition of it once the argument starts to fall apart. Unfortunately, quite typical.

  7. #17
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Just to clarify a bit... "Global Warming" really means something more along the lines of "more weather extremes in general, with an *overall* average increase in temperature." Harsher winter storms do fall within the expected pattern of "global warming."

    Of course, one storm in Houston means nothing in the overall scheme of things. Unless you're in auto-body repair, in which case you're probably pretty happy about now . I was once in Seattle in a snowstorm, and it was a complete mess... I can only imagine how much worse it would be in Houston.
    They do call it "Climate Change" now, so that's an improvement I guess. I just find the whole thing ridiculous, even sad. Climate Change gets so much attention, funding, media publicity, political attention, and it's killed an astounding 0 people so far. How about tackling world hunger, which kills like 15 million people a year. How about some AIDS funding. Whatever. It has too much momentum now.

    I'm all for living cleaner and more efficiently though, as long as it represents a lower cost to the user. Nuclear energy and viable alternatives should definitely be developed if not for sustainability and non-dependence on middle eastern sources. IMO, the best argument for moving away from oil is national security.



  8. #18
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Wow. Change the definition of it once the argument starts to fall apart. Unfortunately, quite typical.
    Why would you think I changed the definition of anything? "Global Warming" is, and always has been, a simplistic explanation-name describing complex events characterized by an *overall* increase in *average* global temperature. While it's true that many people think "Global Warming = everyplace will be warmer than it used to be", that's not what the actual theory posits, and from what I know, never has been.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Climate Change gets so much attention, funding, media publicity, political attention, and it's killed an astounding 0 people so far. How about tackling world hunger, which kills like 15 million people a year. How about some AIDS funding. Whatever. It has too much momentum now.
    While the issues you've raised are certainly worthy of attention, I think it's simplistic to say that "climate change" hasn't been (or won't be) responsible for death and suffering. It is quite certainly difficult to quantitate the impact of climate trends to things like storm damage, drought (and consequently some types of famine), political pressure due to resource scarcity, etc. There *may* not be an effect - I don't claim to know that much about that end of it. But it's quite possible that the admittedly fuzzy and hard-to-quantify issue of climate change can be/will be/is responsible for more obvious problems, in much the same way that a difficult-to-observe virus is responsible for easy-to-see symptoms like a runny nose and sneezing. More investigation is needed, certainly.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm all for living cleaner and more efficiently though, as long as it represents a lower cost to the user. Nuclear energy and viable alternatives should definitely be developed if not for sustainability and non-dependence on middle eastern sources. IMO, the best argument for moving away from oil is national security.
    I'm all with you on this part. Not necessarily that national security is the *best* reason for moving away from oil, but it's certainly sufficient by itself, even if there weren't other reasons.

    Anyway, said my bit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Why would you think I changed the definition of anything? "Global Warming" is, and always has been, a simplistic explanation-name describing complex events characterized by an *overall* increase in *average* global temperature. While it's true that many people think "Global Warming = everyplace will be warmer than it used to be", that's not what the actual theory posits, and from what I know, never has been.

    I have spent more hours than I'd like to admit debating this God forsaken topic. I know EXACTLY what the global warming believers have been arguing for the past decade. Their argument has been that we have "global warming", which means a rise in average global temperatures due to our CO2 emissions, invariably causing worldwide chaos if we don't become good and pure human beings and abandon our way of life *so we can go back to the stone age.* (** = slight exaggeration) Mostly, the entire argument hinges on their confounded belief that CO2 causes global warming and that we are therefore the cause of global warming. If you don't understand by now why that argument, the whole basis of the global warming movement, is so astoundingly unintelligible, then it is not worth my time to explain it. Perhaps you'll find this interesting.

    Scientists abandon global warming 'lie'

    WASHINGTON A United Nations climate change conference in Poland is about to get a surprise from 650 leading scientists who scoff at doomsday reports of man-made global warming labeling them variously a lie, a hoax and part of a new religion.

    Later today, their voices will be heard in a U.S. Senate minority report quoting the scientists, many of whom are current and former members of the U.N.'s own Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

    About 250 of the scientists quoted in the report have joined the dissenting scientists in the last year alone.

    In fact, the total number of scientists represented in the report is 12 times the number of U.N. scientists who authored the official IPCC 2007 report.
    Here are some choice excerpts from the report:

    "I am a skeptic ... . Global warming has become a new religion." -- Nobel Prize Winner for Physics, Ivar Giaever.
    "Since I am no longer affiliated with any organization nor receiving any funding, I can speak quite frankly ... . As a scientist I remain skeptical." -- Atmospheric Scientist Dr. Joanne Simpson, the first woman in the world to receive a Ph.D. in meteorology and formerly of NASA who has authored more than 190 studies and has been called "among the most pre-eminent scientists of the last 100 years."
    Warming fears are the "worst scientific scandal in the history ... . When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists." -- U.N. IPCC Japanese Scientist Dr. Kiminori Itoh, an award-winning Ph.D. environmental physical chemist.
    "The IPCC has actually become a closed circuit; it doesn't listen to others. It doesn't have open minds ... . I am really amazed that the Nobel Peace Prize has been given on scientifically incorrect conclusions by people who are not geologists." -- Indian geologist Dr. Arun D. Ahluwalia at Punjab University and a board member of the U.N.-supported International Year of the Planet.
    "The models and forecasts of the U.N. IPCC "are incorrect because they only are based on mathematical models and presented results at scenarios that do not include, for example, solar activity." -- Victor Manuel Velasco Herrera, a researcher at the Institute of Geophysics of the National Autonomous University of Mexico.
    "It is a blatant lie put forth in the media that makes it seem there is only a fringe of scientists who don't buy into anthropogenic global warming." -- U.S. Government Atmospheric Scientist Stanley B. Goldenberg of the Hurricane Research Division of NOAA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
    "Even doubling or tripling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapor and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will." -- Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University of Auckland, New Zealand.
    "After reading [U.N. IPCC chairman] Pachauri's asinine comment [comparing skeptics to] Flat Earthers, it's hard to remain quiet." -- Climate statistician Dr. William M. Briggs, who specializes in the statistics of forecast evaluation, serves on the American Meteorological Society's Probability and Statistics Committee and is an associate editor of Monthly Weather Review.
    "For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming? For how many years must cooling go on?" -- Geologist Dr. David Gee, the chairman of the science committee of the 2008 International Geological Congress who has authored 130 plus peer-reviewed papers, and is currently at Uppsala University in Sweden.
    "Gore prompted me to start delving into the science again and I quickly found myself solidly in the skeptic camp ... . Climate models can at best be useful for explaining climate changes after the fact." -- Meteorologist Hajo Smit of Holland, who reversed his belief in man-made warming to become a skeptic, is a former member of the Dutch U.N. IPCC committee.
    "Many [scientists] are now searching for a way to back out quietly (from promoting warming fears), without having their professional careers ruined." -- Atmospheric physicist James A. Peden, formerly of the Space Research and Coordination Center in Pittsburgh, Pa.
    "Creating an ideology pegged to carbon dioxide is a dangerous nonsense ... . The present alarm on climate change is an instrument of social control, a pretext for major businesses and political battle. It became an ideology, which is concerning." -- Environmental Scientist Professor Delgado Domingos of Portugal, the founder of the Numerical Weather Forecast group, has more than 150 published articles.
    "CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or another ... . Every scientist knows this, but it doesn't pay to say so ... . Global warming, as a political vehicle, keeps Europeans in the driver's seat and developing nations walking barefoot." -- Dr. Takeda Kunihiko, vice-chancellor of the Institute of Science and Technology Research at Chubu University in Japan.
    "The [global warming] scaremongering has its justification in the fact that it is something that generates funds." -- Award-winning Paleontologist Dr. Eduardo Tonni, of the Committee for Scientific Research in Buenos Aires and head of the Paleontology Department at the University of La Plata.
    The report also includes new peer-reviewed scientific studies and analyses refuting man-made warming fears and a climate developments that contradict the theory.

    It is 4 degrees Celsius (39 Fahrenheit) today in Poznan, Poland, where the U.N. conference is being held.

  10. #20
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Just started snowing two hours ago in New Orleans. I love our down-South snow. There are only a few things that make me smile like a little girl, but snow is one of them.

    Not political, but luckily for the next poster, their post will be at the top of the page.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 12-11-2008 at 10:37 AM. Reason: left out a word
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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