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  1. #21
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus View Post
    Yes this is true, but we are not arguing whether it is a good thing or not, we are arguing how religious institutions reconcile the obvious logical implications of viewing the laws of man equal to their divinely ordained laws.
    Its easy; God (in the eyes of Christian institutions) is viewed as king of the metaphysical, the identification and source of eternal truth and the afterlife. God gave humans free will, in large part so they had the capacity to freely choose whether or not to accept His message through faith, thus ensuring their worthiness to enter His kingdom-which, as Jesus allegedly said, is "not of this Earth" (until the final judgement). Because His kingdom is not of this earth, and because the necessity of free will means that the "Kingdom of Heaven cannot be taken by force", giving religious and secular institutions authority in the other's sphere will fundamentally poison that process and basically defeat the entire purpose of his coming down to Earth to die for our sins in the first place. In the apparently not unfair assumption that we are a bunch of idiots (judging by historical precedent), Jesus made this even more explicit through his "render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's, render unto God what is God's" admonition, which Christian institutions proceeded to ignore for most of the next 1750 years or so. Finally, classical liberalism came about (along with religious epiphanies/popularizations of previously rejected biblical interpretations consistent with the same), which eventually enabled people to choose God with a minimum of coercion, thus better ensuring the salvation of the faithful.

    Naturally, there are other interpretations-the point is that there are ways to reconcile the separation of Church and State (by which I mean the American form of non-establishment and free exercise rather than the somewhat oppressive French Laicite system) with the belief in the Omnipotence of God.
    Bottom line, I don't care how someone reconciles the two, I just insist that they do-period.

  2. #22
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Why are you answering my question with another question?
    It was kinda rhetorical. Basically, what I said was that America is taking a turn to the Left, as the recent elections have shown. I doubt you even disagree with that, it's plainly obvious. We are not a Leftist nation, however. Most people say we are center-Right. I think it's closer to the Center.

  3. #23
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    With Bush, we took a turn to the Right (kinda), and now with Obama, and the House, and Senate, we are taking a turn the Left. Will they fuck it up like Bush and the Republicans did.. is that possible?
    Ask Jimmy Carter.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    It was kinda rhetorical. Basically, what I said was that America is taking a turn to the Left, as the recent elections have shown. I doubt you even disagree with that, it's plainly obvious. We are not a Leftist nation, however. Most people say we are center-Right. I think it's closer to the Center.
    No even the mainstream media admits it's still center-Right. In many of the local elections in my area, people voted for Obama but for everyother position voted for Republican.

    Let's also not forget that McCain got 49% of the popular vote.

    So to declare Obama's victory as a sure sign of America becoming more Leftist is as asinine as Ingraham's declaration that Bush's victory in '04 was a sign of America being solidly Rightist - hence why I made that comparison in the first place.

    If anything, the country is becoming more bitterly divided between Left and Right, and Obama contributed a big deal to that.

  5. #25
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Ask Jimmy Carter.
    Approval rating and favorability-wise, I think while they are close, Bush received the lowest rating ever, at one point. I'm not sure on the averages though.

  6. #26
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No even the mainstream media admits it's still center-Right. In many of the local elections in my area, people voted for Obama but for everyother position voted for Republican.

    Let's also not forget that McCain got 49% of the popular vote.

    So to declare Obama's victory as a sure sign of America becoming more Leftist is as asinine as Ingraham's declaration that Bush's victory in '04 was a sign of America being solidly Rightist - hence why I made that comparison in the first place.

    If anything, the country is becoming more bitterly divided between Left and Right, and Obama contributed a big deal to that.
    Ok, Ok. calling people's views asinine is a little offensive. Misguided perhaps would be more polite.

    In short : behave!

    /moderator

  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So to declare Obama's victory as a sure sign of America becoming more Leftist..
    After the elections, the votes clearly showed that there was a shift, a shift away from Republicans/the Right and towards Democrats/the Left. I can't put that in simpler terms.

  8. #28
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    After the elections, the votes clearly showed that there was a shift, a shift away from Republicans/the Right and towards Democrats/the Left. I can't put that in simpler terms.
    And what is the significance of that even? Most people turned away from the Reublicans because of the screw-ups of the Bush administration as opposed to actually believing in the Democratic party's principles.

  9. #29
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And what is the significance of that even?
    The Democratic majority in the House and Senate and a Democratic president... fairly significant.

  10. #30
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The Democratic majority in the House and Senate and a Democratic president... fairly significant.
    Not from the 50,000 ft perspective where I'm standing.

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