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Thread: Born alive

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Default Born alive

    During the campaign, Obama took some heat for voting against a couple "born alive" bills. Those bills made it criminal to withhold medical treatment for fetuses that survived botched abortions. What I find interesting is that I actually agree with Obama on this. We have already decided, as a society, that only the mother can grant a fetus legal rights. Yet, because of this bill, a fetus can be granted legal rights because the mother chose a crappy doctor. I find it frustrating that pro-choicers don't see the logical inconsistency that comes with supporting this bill.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    During the campaign, Obama took some heat for voting against a couple "born alive" bills. Those bills made it criminal to withhold medical treatment for fetuses that survived botched abortions. What I find interesting is that I actually agree with Obama on this. We have already decided, as a society, that only the mother can grant a fetus legal rights. Yet, because of this bill, a fetus can be granted legal rights because the mother chose a crappy doctor. I find it frustrating that pro-choicers don't see the logical inconsistency that comes with supporting this bill.
    I thought the argument for the bold was that so long as the baby is inside the mother, it's a part of the mother's body, and of course, a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with "her" body. Once the baby is outside the mother you can't make that argument. The baby is an independent entity under natural law and has the same rights as anyone admitted to an ER.

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    I thought the argument for the bold was that so long as the baby is inside the mother, it's a part of the mother's body, and of course, a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with "her" body. Once the baby is outside the mother you can't make that argument. The baby is an independent entity under natural law and has the same rights as anyone admitted to an ER.
    If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be indicted for two murders, if the woman planned to keep the child. This scenario contradicts that argument.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be indicted for two murders, if the woman planned to keep the child. This scenario contradicts that argument.
    Fine. But what is the argument for extending that outside the womb? After birth the baby is no longer a fetus, it is a human separate from the mother. The mother's prior intentions would be obsolete at that point regardless.

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Fine. But what is the argument for extending the argument outside the womb? After birth the baby is no longer a fetus, it is a human separate from the mother. The mother's prior intentions would be obsolete at that point regardless.
    The assumption is that if the mother voluntarily gives birth, she is granting the fetus legal rights.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The assumption is that if the mother voluntarily gives birth, she is granting the fetus legal rights.
    I don't know what you're arguing. We're talking about medical treatment for babies outside the womb, no? Where's the inconsistency?

    Are you saying the birth has to be "voluntary" for the baby to have rights? (baby, not fetus)

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    I don't know what you're arguing. We're talking about medical treatment for babies outside the womb, no? Where's the inconsistency?

    Are you saying the birth has to be "voluntary" for the baby to have rights? (baby, not fetus)
    Correct, the procedure is not a voluntary birth, therefore the fetus has no rights if the procedure goes wrong. The decision of the mother was to terminate. That decision shouldn't be ignored due to a doctor's incompetence.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Correct, the procedure is not a voluntary birth, therefore the fetus has no rights if the procedure goes wrong.
    But if the abortion fails and the fetus is born alive, the mother/fetus/abortion issue becomes obsolete, because at that point it is no longer a fetus, but a separate living human. It's unfortunate, but you can't go backwards and use those arguments after the baby has been born. Do you see my point?

    "OMG I FEEEEEEEEEL SO INTENSELY ABOUT EVERYTHING OMG OMG OMG GET ME A XANAX" -Priam (ENFP impersonation)

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    But if the abortion fails and the fetus is born alive, the mother/fetus/abortion issue becomes obsolete, because at that point it is no longer a fetus, but a separate living human. It's unfortunate, but you can't go backwards and use those arguments after the baby has been born. Do you see my point?
    I see your point, but I don't agree with it. I think it's inconsistent.

    Who raises for the child? Certainly not the mother. Would anyone want to adopt a child from a failed abortion? Does it become a ward of the state? If so, I want there to be stricter qualifications before doctors allowed to perform abortions.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    During the campaign, Obama took some heat for voting against a couple "born alive" bills. Those bills made it criminal to withhold medical treatment for fetuses that survived botched abortions. What I find interesting is that I actually agree with Obama on this. We have already decided, as a society, that only the mother can grant a fetus legal rights. Yet, because of this bill, a fetus can be granted legal rights because the mother chose a crappy doctor. I find it frustrating that pro-choicers don't see the logical inconsistency that comes with supporting this bill.
    The consistency *is* there. If a botched abortion happens so late that the fetus could survive outside the womb, then it happened too late and shouldn't have been allowed to occur, anyway. I'm pro-choice, not pro-partial birth abortion.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

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