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  1. #61
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I got a

    "The requested page could not be found"

    from that link. :/
    Dammnit, I hate the internet.

    Try this:

    http://dreier.house.gov/pdf/IPI%20-%20CapGainsKey.pdf

  2. #62
    Senior Member Hexis's Avatar
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    Default Sorry for the lengthy post, I dont do it often so give me some slack lol.

    Well Ive been trying since first reading this thread to come to a conclusion on many of my thoughts on the following subjects. And possibly it might be an NF thing but my oponion of some of these change almost daily. So im done trying to figure out a permanent choice on these and just figured id post my general thoughts as they are currently.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    The 2nd amendment.
    Im not against the 2nd amendment cause I love guns and would hate to have that privilege tooken from me. How ever I do believe in the greater good, and this might be an NF thing cause its recently been brought to my attention that's the consensus amongst us. And I feel government is there to be a bastion of this "greater good" so if they deem something it should be acknowledge that rather we like it or not its there to benefit us all.

    Now we come to the problem at hand, it is quite apparent to all that our government is possibly the farthest thing from a "bastion of good". So considering what its there for, to if our own government where to ever become "evil", we the people could fight back. Im all for that, but I hope for the day when our ruling body of government is their to protect our interests, all of them. And we know it to be so true that the 2nd amendment is there instead as a reminder to our enemies that even if you breach our defenses and land on our shores. We as a community, as a single entity, as a living, breathing ideal will not stop our fight!

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Gay marriage
    The government should have no say in such a matter, they are their to protect the rights of all the people. Just cause some wish to go against the standards of an outdated society still doesn't give anyone the freedom to take way anothers. I understand that you (<generalization) may not like it but understand that if as a country of "freedom" and a countrymen of this country you are responsible for the freedoms of all our countrymen and have no right to take from them liberties you wouldn't want tooken from you.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Abortion
    Same argument as above, a women should be given the right to do what she wishes with her body when it comes to such a matter. If you don't like it, you don't have to have them. You don't even have to accept them, but YOU CAN NOT take from her, her freedom. To even think of doing so makes you no better than the bastards who force women into slavery and prostitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs
    I feel there's no stopping it now when it comes to the first two. I would love to say the government should be able to outlaw them and put harsh punishments on breaking them cause its stupid to allow people to put themselves under such influences or health risks. But im guilty of them myself and do not regret doing either.

    I do feel how ever that we should put harsher punishment on laws that have to do with a lack of responsibility when it comes to some things like alcohol. Ive had several people in my life be killed by drunk drivers, and these drivers practically got slaps on the wrist. And I hate to say that im guilty of drunk driving on a couple of occasion, but if the punishment was worse than just a night in jail if im to get caught you can bet I wouldnt even think about doing it. I know this is going to sound insane but humor me, I am an Idealist after all lol.

    But I feel that the punishment for drunk driving should be something as harsh as pre-meditated murder, if not charged for that. Now I know that's an extremely outrageous punishment to some for something that's so common today but if your willing to possibly take the chance of robbing another's life just so you can run to the store to buy some milk, you can burn in whatever hell you believe in.

    As for other drugs im up for all them being illegal, except marijuana. You know the taxes we could rake in for that shit?! A pack would be like 25 bucks!

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Foreign policy
    This is one of those that I have an extremely hard time coming to a conclusion on. I feel atm our current policies suck, but I feel a big problem with it is that we are so "open" about what happens inside our borders.

    Alot of other countries and their countrymen look at us like this all day .

    We show the world the good and the bad everyday, when we should only show the good. I know that sounds bad, no one likes out right lying but "To a true warrior power perceived may be power achieved.". Im all for freedom of speech but at some point I feel the government should be able to say "No.".

    And after we are able to gain the respect of our neighbors once again only then can we start to change policy for the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    The war on terror
    Nonsense, a complete cluster fuck if you ask me. Damn did we screw up again, and guess what?! Its broadcasted all over the place for everyone to see...damn.

    I dont really have much else to say on it other than that, I want our guys to come home but we can just magically pull them out like some people think. We've started this, now we must finish.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    The War in Iraq
    Uh ok we kinda wouldn't have a war over their if we didn't start the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Corporate tax cuts
    A load of bullshit, taxes should be even throughout the entire populace. Same rate/cuts/bonuses for all financial incomes.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    The financial market bailout
    We really as a country need to learn how to manage our money.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Middle class tax cuts
    Already made my point.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Social Security benefits
    A complete shamble, its so messed up its become more hindrance than beneficial. We either need to completely do away with it or make it to where you have to earn it somehow.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Public health benifits like a two tier system or other ideas
    I feel their should be a general free health care system but at the same time for the people who can afford it and would like better or personal/immediate treatment the ability to purchase said things.

    A mother who is holding down two jobs to raise a child by herself should not have to be further burdened, or always scared that her child may get sick cause she just doesn't make enough to have the privileges that her neighbors may have.

    We as a society should not allow a child anywhere in our borders to go with out health care, food or shelter for any reasons!

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Welfare Benefits
    Im not sure how we should exactly change it but we've gotta make it where people can still support their children with lower incomes and not have to worry about it. But at the same time weed out the assholes you abuse it.

    "Hey man you wana buy my food stamps for 20 bucks, I could really use a couple of six packs?...*undercover cop flashes badge*"

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Funding for higher education

    Funding for K-12 education

    Programs for children like public pre-K and Head-Start.
    This should be the same as taxes, just cause you where born in a richer neighborhood should not mean that you go to a better funded school with more programs than my son. I should not have to earn a higher in come so our children can have the same opportunities. And I shouldn't have to even think about be worried about it either!

    A big problem about this though is the "reward" system we have set up in schools with the government. If a schools test scores suck, they get less funding...WTF!!!!!????!?!?!??!?!?! Ok so our students suck so your going to handicap them more!?!?!??!? *bang bang, double tap*

    This is so ridiculous someone needs to be shot for it.

    First we need to do away with standardized testing, and then we can talk about funding.
    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . .
    Im all up for anything that keeps the gas prices low. But on a personal stance concerning things like energy I feel it should be government regulated, oil/water/gas/electric companies should not be allowed to do the things they've done.

    Big oil companies have already proven that if not kept in line they will screw us over. But then you get the people who dont trust our government either and ask what keeps them from doing so. At some point you have to trust them, I say things like oil are better left in the governments hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus
    Any other topic you would like to chime in about that better clarifies your own personal/political stance.
    A topic im concerned about is legal punishments. Why do we not have caning?!

    If a guy rapes thirty women, my wife and daughter included and kills all above mentioned women after done. You bet your ass ill be in prison for kidnapping him and torturing him to death for 30 days! Cause the only else that would happen would be he'd go to prison for like 70 years and probably die behind bars before they even got half way through the list to lethal injection.

    I feel on some things we should have insanely harsh, and public punishments for certain crimes. That would teach people.
    SDMF

  3. #63
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    1. The 2nd amendment.
    We haven't had 2nd amendment rights as the writers intended since at least the Civil War, however, I don't think it would have occurred to them not to allow citizens not to have weapons for hunting/protecting persons/property. So reasonable gun control is okay with me.
    2. Gay marriage
    I'm in favor of civil unions for both same sex and hetero couples. Religious groups that are ideologically opposed to such things, however, should not be forced to preform ceremonies or hire people in unions they disprove of.
    3. Abortion
    Pro-life, but sadly pro-choice. We can't put the genie back in the bottle and I don't want women being harmed by illegal procedures. But we need to find real practical ways to reduce abortion. Becoming pregnant, even if it isn't planned, needn't be a disaster.
    4. Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs
    In favor of legalizing, regulating, and taxing some milder drugs, but I don't think that will change a lot of things irl. Many of people incarcerated for drugs are in there, not for drug use, but for stupid things they've done to acquire drugs or while under the influence. Dealers will simply find other illegal ways to make money if corporate America takes over the recreational drug trade, which I have no doubt they will if it becomes legalized. It's the American way.
    5. Foreign policy
    Mind our own business, be as independent as possible, do not allow the corporations to give away our shirt for short-term profit.
    6. The war on terror
    Colossal pile of BS.
    7. The War in Iraq
    Dumb idea. We need to get out of there.
    8. Corporate tax cuts
    Maybe for companies that do good things like keep factories in the US and go above and beyond to be green.
    9. The financial market bailout
    Should have had the kind of stuff they are going to do to the automotive bail-out and should have included help for homeowners.
    10. Middle class tax cuts
    Yeah. The middle class often falls into the no-mans land of not being able to get any kind of government assistance, but not quite able to make it. A healthy middle class is good for us all.
    11. Social Security benefits
    Tax all of it, not just the first $100K (or whatever the cap is) and don't provide benefits for those who don't need them (maybe give a tax break instead?). Problem mostly fixed.
    12. Public health benifits like a two tier system or other ideas
    Healthcare should be a right in a developed nation. National healthcare for those who want it. Free market for those who can afford and want it.
    13. Welfare Benefits
    In favor of, but encourage education and work where realistically possible. Extend benefits for people who are making an effort, instead of dropping them off a cliff once they begin to be self-sufficient.
    14. Funding for higher education
    If we want to be competitive, we need to do something here.
    15. Funding for K-12 education
    Equal funding for equal standards.
    16. Programs for children like public pre-K and Head-Start.
    Should be available, but attendance should not be mandatory.
    17. Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . .
    We need to work towards sustainably, independence, and caring for the environment. For real.
    18. Any other topic you would like to chime in about that better clarifies your own personal/political stance.
    Disenfranchised Evangelical and formerly one of the Religious Right.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    [*]The 2nd amendment.

    Protecting people from themselves is not enough reason to remove this right.

    [*]Gay marriage

    I don't agree that the holistic concept of marriage is what gives it sanctity, but rather the individual's commitment, the marriage of another does not represent this, and i would say neither does their own... it only signifies it in a legal and social sense. referring to marriage in such a way reinforces my notion that, to many people, marriage is a crutch for their handicapped sense of personal responsibility.

    [*]Abortion

    i dont think this topic has a right answer. there are legitimate reasons both in favor and against it, and it eventually boils down to whether greater ends justify the means. personally, i believe they can, but only with the strictest respect to why those means have been avoided at all costs... making allowances is a slippery slope.

    [*]Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs

    i think anything that only affects the individual (even negatively) should be unregulated, instead they should be replaced with strict laws to punish behavior that negatively impacts others, whether it was caused by substance abuse or not. the government should not act as a replacement for an individual's lack of responsibility to their own health, they are only in place to enforce the structures of fairness in society.

    [*]Foreign policy[*]The war on terror[*]The War in Iraq

    i think a hands-on approach to managing foreign conflict is appropriate, with consensus... the way nations interact is no different than a society of people.

    the advertised reasons for the war may have been fabricated, but whether it was a "good idea" will not be clear for a while and i certainly dont think it was entirely unreasonable... although i would have preferred other more peaceful methods of motivating reform of the current systems of government in the middle east. if the matter is oil, it would be preferential to give those countries incentives to reform and participate in a regulated global market. on the other hand, im unsure how much of that has already been tried, and sometimes things do need to be broken before they are rebuilt.

    [*]Corporate tax cuts[*]The financial market bailout[*]Middle class tax cuts[*]Social Security benefits[*]Public health benifits like a two tier system or other ideas[*]Welfare Benefits

    dont know enough about economics to comment

    [*]Funding for higher education[*]Funding for K-12 education[*]Programs for children like public pre-K and Head-Start.

    i dont think these should be required of a government, but since it most often has a positive return in the long run, a good idea with enough oversight to ensure funding is getting maximum return.

    [*]Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . .

    i think this is a global issue... research and technology is the linchpin, and national governments should convene to stimulate growth in that regard since, as a whole, they are responsible for the issue.

  5. #65
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Dammnit, I hate the internet.

    Try this:

    http://dreier.house.gov/pdf/IPI%20-%20CapGainsKey.pdf
    Thanks for the link. Of course I'm still extremely skeptical after reading that mostly because

    1) That paper was written by a partisan lobbying group. I was looking for more of an objective and impartial source. That source is the farthest you can get from impartial.


    2) The language often reads more like propaganda than an informative paper. Here's a good example. "Economic Growth Benefits All Income Groups. Opponents of the capital gains tax cut use the equity issue
    as a smoke screen to avoid the real issue, economic growth. If a capital gains tax cut generates new investment and new jobs, as most of the evidence suggests, all Americans will reap the benefit."

    That paragraph doesn't even make sense. It suggests that opponents of capital gains tax cuts think the cuts will benefit everyone. Why would anyone be against something that benefits everyone? This is the kind of pseudo-logic you get in political contexts that would be unacceptable in many other contexts, because it simply isn't reasonable.


    3) Most of the data, charts, and graphs are displaying fairly narrow time ranges. In the few cases where broad time ranges are given the results are often inconclusive. For example look at Table 3, Net Private Foreign Capital Investment in the U.S., 1962-2000. There was an increase in the capital gains rate in 1986 which they argue hurt foreign investment into the US. However looking at the surrounding years it's easy to see that foreign investment was already horrible in 1984 and 1985 before the change in the capital gains rate. It looks like a lot of the data is really just showing oscillations in the business cycle, and they are trying to make it look like capital gains has an effect when an apparant effect is a coincidence.

    Also there is no data included about how things like median income and the unemployment rate are affected by capital gains taxes. This is something I'll have to research on my own. This paper at least is a decent starting place to see effects capital gains taxes really have, so I thank you for the link. However I wouldn't buy into its conclusions without checking other sources first.
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  6. #66

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    The 2nd amendment.
    I believe it means we should have the right to bear arms, I don't believe it refers exclusively to a militia. Besides, in that time a militia was made up of ordinary people.
    Gay marriage
    I absolutely believe that same-sex couples should have the legal right to do things that married couples do like make decisions on medical treatment and share the health insurance benefits of one of the partners. I'm also not interested in what churches think, because they don't have to marry anyone they don't want to. But I'm very torn on the word "marriage" being included. For what it's worth, I voted no on Prop 8.
    Abortion
    I'm pro-choice...but I believe your choice is made when you engage in behavior designed to produce a child. It makes me very angry when people act like pregnancy is something that "happened to them." That said, because there are so many morons that can't keep it in their pants, I reluctantly realize that abortion is almost a necessity on public health grounds. But I think it's a shameful tragedy, and I wish more people would consider giving up the child for adoption.
    Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs
    Current laws on alcohol and tobacco are fine with me. I see very little harm in occasional marijuana use, but I'm reluctant to legalize drugs because I feel that's almost the same as saying it's okay.
    The war on terror
    A good idea poorly executed, to almost an unimaginable degree.
    The War in Iraq
    I was in favor at first, because whether or not WMDs were present, I saw the toppling of Saddam's regime as a net good. I'm still not entirely sure it was a bad idea from the beginning, but it sure became one awfully quickly.
    Corporate tax cuts
    They only work if corporations have a conscience. Otherwise the extra money just lines the pockets of plutocrats.
    The financial market bailout
    Same answer as the last question. All you're doing is teaching the Wall Street guys that their poor decisions will never be allowed to bite them in the ass. Sure, the bailout prevented some rough times, but the rough times were probably a needed correction. Now, nobody learns a damn thing. And the taxpayers should have gotten voting shares in the companies that were bailed out, not warrants. We bailed them out AND let them dictate the terms.
    Middle class tax cuts
    Yes, please.
    Social Security benefits
    If we continue to see it as an entitlement, it's doomed. The baby boomers are going to bankrupt it.
    Welfare Benefits
    Any civilized society needs to offer them. I myself just collected unemployment, so I cannot in good conscience be against it. I think we need to tweak it though, so that it doesn't pay to keep pumping out children into an untenable existence. On balance, welfare mothers are no match for corporate welfare whores.
    Funding for higher education
    Happy with it from a government standpoint. But it's criminal that a lot of those rich-ass schools like the Ivies don't use their massive endowments to make tuition free. They wouldn't even feel it. Some endowments are bigger than the economies of third-world nations, and charging the exorbitant tuition they do just ensures that you need to be rich AND smart to go, not just smart. It's contributing to economic oligarchy.
    Funding for K-12 education
    Happy with it. Throwing money at it won't fix it. It would be a big start if parents took more of an interest in their kids' schooling.
    Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . .
    I'm in favor of innovation for alternative energy. I'm confident that someone will realize the fortune to be made in making it happen, but I'm also afraid they'll get Tuckered by the oil lobby. I'm much more concerned about dwindling fossil fuels than global warming.
    Any other topic you would like to chime in about that better clarifies your own personal/political stance.
    I was a Republican as a young man, but I'm not anymore. I didn't leave the party though...they left me when they allowed themselves to be taken over by robber barons and evangelicals. I'm a solid centrist now. I think the two biggest problems in our country are overpopulation and the demand for constant increase in profit margin by corporations.
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  7. #67
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    .

    1. The 2nd amendment. GO GUNS!
    2. Gay marriage I'm gay. Of course I want it.
    3. Abortion For it.
    4. Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs Legalize everything. If people screw themselves, it is their responsibility.
    5. Foreign policy Non-interventionism / Isolationism
    6. The war on terror A waste of time, money, energy. And it's nameless.
    7. The War in Iraq A waste of time, money, energy.
    8. Corporate tax cuts For. Although this is a sketchy situation.
    9. The financial market bailout Totally against. Make them responsible.
    10. Middle class tax cuts All tax cuts are good.
    11. Social Security benefits I'm living on them right now.
    12. Public health benifits like a two tier system or other ideas Hard to say.
    13. Welfare Benefits I'm technically on them right now.
    14. Funding for higher education Vouchers, please?
    15. Funding for K-12 education Vouchers, please?
    16. Programs for children like public pre-K and Head-Start. Hell no. Kids are already sapped of their play time too early as it is. Fuck this shit.
    17. Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . . Only if it actually works. It needs to be efficient. I'm quite fond of nuclear energy.
    18. Any other topic you would like to chime in about that better clarifies your own personal/political stance. <NULL>

  8. #68
    Senior Member Kollin's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=G-Virus;433586]Where do you personally stand on the following? All the topics were left purposefully vague for you to feel comfortable on elaborating your own personal opinion with as much detail as you like, and whether you would apply it to yourself only or to others also.

    1. The 2nd amendment. pro...with extensive background checks
    2. Gay marriage some form of civil union
    3. Abortion against
    4. Alcohol, tobacco and other drugs, no drugs, alcohol and tobacco ok
    5. Foreign policy diplomacy is important
    6. The war on terror + they are thugs
    7. The War in Iraq got rid of a bad man, but looks like we got in over our heads
    8. Corporate tax cuts pro to create more jobs
    9. The financial market bailout against for the most part
    10. Middle class tax cuts govt needs to watch what it spends
    11. Social Security benefits not sure
    12. Public health benifits like a two tier system or other ideas no opinion
    13. Welfare Benefits like the idea of unemployment insurance, but not without some responsibility of recipient
    14. Funding for higher education higher ed. is way too expensive
    15. Funding for K-12 education should go to a more privatized system...has really failed us as far as preparing us for the world we live in...
    16. Programs for children like public pre-K and Head-Start.more govt. programs
    17. Energy, from solar cells, drill baby drill, to nuclear plants, etc . . .homemade is always better than imported. self-sufficiency rules
    18. Any other topic you would like to chime in about that better clarifies your own personal/political stance.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    That paragraph doesn't even make sense. It suggests that opponents of capital gains tax cuts think the cuts will benefit everyone. Why would anyone be against something that benefits everyone? This is the kind of pseudo-logic you get in political contexts that would be unacceptable in many other contexts, because it simply isn't reasonable.
    um, weren't you objecting to capital gains tax cuts being lower than income taxes on the basis that it wasn't fair and (implicitly) that it increases income disparities? These are entirely separate arguments from whether or not capital gains tax cuts benefit all people: the former argument is based on preoccupation with disparate relative gains, while the latter is preoccupied with maximizing the absolute gains of all socio-economic groups.

  10. #70
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    um, weren't you objecting to capital gains tax cuts being lower than income taxes on the basis that it wasn't fair and (implicitly) that it increases income disparities? These are entirely separate arguments from whether or not capital gains tax cuts benefit all people: the former argument is based on preoccupation with disparate relative gains, while the latter is preoccupied with maximizing the absolute gains of all socio-economic groups.
    No, this is not exactly it. The problem with the tax system being unfair is that it doesn't "benefit all people". More specifically, let's assume that lower capital gains rates do benefit everyone. Why wouldn't lower income tax rates also benefit everyone? Do lower taxes in general help the economy or are capital gains taxes the only taxes that count?

    So from the perspective that the type of tax has little effect, there isn't a good reason why the middle class should pay a much higher tax rate than the wealthy. Wouldn't median incomes rise faster if the middle class paid a lower tax rate? For your capital gains argument to hold water it is insufficient to say that lower capital gains rates aids everyone. You have to show that lower capital gains rates raises median incomes and GDP faster than lower income tax rates.

    Do income and capital gains taxes have similar effects, or is capital gains the only one that matters and income can be taxed with impunity?
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