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Thread: Mumbai

  1. #61
    sophiloist Kaizer's Avatar
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    The earth, when looked at from another planet, must seem like a homogeneous entity at total and complete peace with itself.. yep beggars would ride
    The answer must be in the attempt
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  2. #62
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Victor tends toward hyperbole, but he is not being a hatemonger; he's IS, however, being very effectively demonized by having words put into his mouth. Pointing out problematic aspects of widespread contemporary Muslim attitudes and religious interpretations is NOT the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists (and most Islamists are not terrorists-just as most segregationists were not members of the KKK). Frankly, he hasn't said much that is qualitatively different from what Stoned_Rider or Berberella often write about, so why pick on him?
    I'm referring specifically to posts he has made in this thread directed towards G virus, which are inflammatory and personal. I don't disagree with your larger point. I take issue with how G Virus has been treated after defending (rather calmly, I thought, considering) his religion.

    Edit: I don't recall Stoned_Rider or Berberella posting anything like that a Muslim member's question reminds them of 1930's Germany. In fact, I don't remember them posting anything at all lately. Did I miss a comeback? I'd love to see either of them.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #63
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm referring specifically to posts he has made in this thread directed towards G virus, which are inflammatory and personal. I don't disagree with your larger point. I take issue with how G Virus has been treated after defending (rather calmly, I thought, considering) his religion.

    Edit: I don't recall Stoned_Rider or Berberella posting anything like that a Muslim member's question reminds them of 1930's Germany. In fact, I don't remember them posting anything at all lately. Did I miss a comeback? I'd love to see either of them.
    Sadly, Stoned_Rider is still AWOL as far as I know, and Berberella hasn't posted very much recently (though I think she made a small post in either this thread or an INTPc counterpart). I was simply referencing some of their previous posts, which are typically quite a bit more condemnatory towards Islam and its effects on the lives and perceptions of its adherents than Victor's posts typically are. I can understand why you perceive Victor's response as inappropriate, I think G-virus's statements about the separation of religion and state (which I also found objectionable) made him think of those MSA members when he responded (though Victor IS prone to hyperbole sometimes, so maybe not)-some of G-virus's statements are similar to saying "some of my best friends are black" (i.e. possibly an innocent statement that means actually what it says, but with a contextual history that makes it suspect, often unfairly so). I have also had run-ins with the MSA, in particular about an Islamist and anti-semitic (not merely anti-Israel) uluma the Georgia State MSA had invited to speak on campus several years ago, so I can understand where Victor is coming from as far as that organization is concerned.

  4. #64
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I guess the main thrust of my point would be:

    Attacking a philosophy = OK
    Attacking another member of the site = not so much.

    You are welcome to voice your objections to G virus's statements about separation of church and state, as I would be doing myself if I hadn't had to step in to moderate a bit. I'm not asking folks to stop critiquing ideologies, although it might be nice if everything didn't end up in "Jung sucks" territory.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #65
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Virus View Post
    Below signifies the number of times Victor has failed to respond to my posts with a reasonable answer. It also signifies how close he is to being the first member of my new ignore list.
    i think ignoring him is perfectly valid.

  6. #66
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Actually, the separation of religion and state is viewed as consistent with (and in some cases a vital aspect of) the laws of God within contemporary Christianity-including the vast majority of fundamentalist sects.

    And, to put it bluntly, any religious law that is in opposition to such basic and indispensable liberal concepts as freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and equality under the law regardless of religious affiliation is an abomination. Guess what Shariah law has to say about all these things?
    I guess if we get very many more conservative judges appointed to the USA Supreme court, it may become somewhat of a moot distinction.

    I've never heard much good about Shariah law, but I'm also not familiar enough with the intricacies of how much its current implementation is a reflection of Wahhabi/Salafism/Unitarian priorities, and how much relates to a more general Muslim consensus, if, indeed, there is such a thing.

    From Wikipedia - Legal scholar L. Ali Khan explains that "the concept of sharia has been thoroughly confused in legal and common literature. For some Muslims, sharia consists of the Qur'an and Sunnah. For others, it also includes classical fiqh. Most encyclopedias define sharia as law based upon the Qur'an, the Sunna, and classical fiqh derived from consensus (ijma) and analogy (qiyas).This definition of sharia inappropriately lumps together the revealed with the unrevealed. This blending of sources has created a muddled assumption that scholarly interpretations are as sacred and beyond revision as are the Qur'an and the Sunnah. The Qur'an and the Sunnah constitute the immutable Basic Code, which should be kept separate from ever-evolving interpretive law (fiqh). This analytical separation between the Basic Code and fiqh is necessary to" dissipate confusion around the term Sharia.[5]

    There are signs that Muslims are gradually moderating themselves - if you drill down into some of the sub-headings in menus and links here.
    Liberal movements within Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I think they should get together and pool some resources and spend a few million on the problem - even hiring some PR agencies. From time to time one will hear Muslims themselves calling for this. In this article one can pick out various lines that refer to this.
    Muslims condemn Mumbai attacks, worry about image - Yahoo! News
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  7. #67
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default Politics by other means

    Mumbai is politics by other means.

    Islam is a political religion - it has no doctrine of the separation of Mosque and State.

    In fact Islam seeks both political power and religious power - this is why it is totalitarian.

    The stated tactic at the moment is propaganda in the democracies and terror against soft targets.

    And it is propaganda that is the most dangerous.

    And it is sophisticated and relentless propaganda that seeks to use our weaknesses against us.

    However one of our advantages is that we are inoculated against anti-semitism.

    However what we need to do is to appreciate Western Civilization and share our appreciation with the world.

    Also we need to support moderate muslims who wish to introduce the doctrine of Separation of Mosque and State. And we need to support those moderate muslims who want to incorporate the Universal Declaration of Human Rights into Islam.

    At the moment we are losing the propaganda war.

    So we need to take stock and support the values of Western Civilization as well as supporting moderate muslims.

  8. #68
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Victor: I think you might find this (loose) organization to be of some interests, especially considering your location; JIL English Edition

    Kuranes: do some independent investigation about this group (and their counterparts in other countries), and you will find that they are highly cognizant of the fact that they are a besieged minority among the religious proportion of their countries' population. Keep in mind this is the situation within Indonesia, which is widely credited with having a "relatively" moderate Muslim population. In most majority-Muslim countries with a religiously observant population (not to be confused with countries containing only a majority of "nominal" Muslims, such as Albania and Kazakhstan), the situation is much worse.

  9. #69
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Victor: I think you might find this (loose) organization to be of some interests, especially considering your location; JIL English Edition
    Yes, thank you Redneck. This is of considerable interest to me.

    Thank you,
    Victor.

  10. #70
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    I have to say that I agree at 100% with what Victor has said so far.

    I too had the same curious experience just after the 9/11 attacks, when I noticed that half of my muslim friends were having a party to celebrate the event!

    I remember pretty well: when they saw my face, they asked me the same question "are you jewish?". When I answered my mother was, then they replied that my reaction was predictable, then.


    And I would say the answers G-Virus gave so far are quite stereotypical and of course, in complete self-denial. I've heard the same story repeated over and over again one hundred times, to say the least. I know Islam quite well, I even know how to decipher a few verses in Arabic, this doesn't change anything, this is only a childish way to elude the evidences. The more obvious, the more in denial.
    The Islamic faith is rather complex, and share various families of thought, but the fact is the sunni majority has a clear problem with modern secularism (especially hanbalism and malekism), like NO OTHER religion on earth.
    The Shia faith is slightly more interesting because it allows itjihad and a shariah that can evolve through time and contexts. Thus many high-ranking shia scholars and ayatollahs actually favor the separation of state and religion.
    But for most of the Sunnis, the mere idea to change their shariah is simply heresy, and hence, punishable of death.

    There's no need to hide under political correctness to acknowledge those sad facts:

    In France, when the CFCM was created, and the French muslims were free to choose the group they belonged, 45% voted for the UOIF [extremists close to the Muslim Brotherhood], and the liberal muslims gathered only barely 8% of the mosques.

    As depressing as it seems, when the Pew institute made polls within various muslim states (Morocco, Jordania, Turkey, Indonesia, Lebanon... etc..), they realized a vast majority of people here agreed with Bin Laden, and that many thought that terrorism against the West was thoroughly justified.
    A vast majority too considered that Israel should immediately be wiped out of the face of earth.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 12-02-2008 at 02:30 AM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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