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  1. #71
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Just because nothing can't be done about it does't mean that this is right.
    The most I could see you accomplishing with this thinking is either a confirmation that you are right, or a realization that you were wrong. Beyond that, it is kind of a waste of time and energy, even if fun to think about. (This discussion sounds familiar...)
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #72
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    The most I could see you accomplishing with this thinking is either a confirmation that you are right, or a realization that you were wrong. Beyond that, it is kind of a waste of time and energy, even if fun to think about. (This discussion sounds familiar...)
    Perhaps.

    But you can always try to write book about it do gain more social prestige and give public lectures about your thoughts and ideas.

    You can actually make a very nice living out of it.


    I think that we are off topic here.

  3. #73
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Then what about this part of my post, which I had thought was more on-topic? I was trying to relate your post to the OP, in fact.
    From your post, it sounds like you are asking the general question, "Why do people die for such arbitrary things as 'countries'?", which is related to your recent thread in this forum.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Even if that were true, what would you be able to do about it? Change the foundations of belief and thought for every person on Earth (actually, it could be strategically targeted, reducing the necessary number, but still would be a huge number of people)?

    From your post, it sounds like you are asking the general question, "Why do people die for such arbitrary things as 'countries'?", which is related to your recent thread in this forum.
    I tend to agree. A good example are the Nielsen ratings for television. Studies have shown that their accuracy can vary widely, but they still "work" because broadcasters have a tacit agreement to abide by them. If everyone agrees for the sake of expediency that something is true, then in practice it rarely matters if it is actually true.

    As far as calling countries an arbitrary thing to die for, lots of things seem arbitrary to a dispassionate observer. This poster may not feel strongly for his country, but many do and their reasoning is important to them. If there were two dry cleaners across the street from each other, a dispassionate observer may say that my choice of which to patronize is arbitrary. But if the observer were aware that the owner of one of the shops had fired my father, it doesn't seem so arbitrary anymore that I choose the other shop.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  5. #75
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    As far as calling countries an arbitrary thing to die for, lots of things seem arbitrary to a dispassionate observer. This poster may not feel strongly for his country, but many do and their reasoning is important to them. If there were two dry cleaners across the street from each other, a dispassionate observer may say that my choice of which to patronize is arbitrary. But if the observer were aware that the owner of one of the shops had fired my father, it doesn't seem so arbitrary anymore that I choose the other shop.
    But then would they be dying "for" their country, or "for" those things that give it value to them (in your example, that would be not firing your father)? And is there really a difference there?

    Not quite what I was getting at, either. He seemed to mean that the countries are arbitrary, perhaps referring to that they are abstract concepts. Taking that approach probably just mangles the discussion, so he probably didn't mean it that way.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    But then would they be dying "for" their country, or "for" those things that give it value to them (in your example, that would be not firing your father)? And is there really a difference there?
    I would say that any difference between those things is purely semantic. "Your country" isn't anything but a collection of the people and values contained in that country. Without the underlying values, "country" has no meaning.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  7. #77
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I would say that any difference between those things is purely semantic. "Your country" isn't anything but a collection of the people and values contained in that country. Without the underlying values, "country" has no meaning.
    Doesn't it seem, though, that people look more favorably upon one than the other?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #78

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    I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think two separate things exist here, so I can't judge which people favor.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
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  9. #79
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Do you think people who say "it's pointless to die for your country" would also say "it's pointless to die for your values and/or things you hold dear"? Because it doesn't seem that way, unless I'm making an unfair assumption.

    Maybe the split happens mostly when your "country" contains values and/or dearly held people that you can't relate to, from being either too different from your own or just too varied among themselves.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Do you think people who say "it's pointless to die for your country" would also say "it's pointless to die for your values and/or things you hold dear"? Because it doesn't seem that way, unless I'm making an unfair assumption.

    Maybe the split happens mostly when your "country" contains values and/or dearly held people that you can't relate to, from being either too different from your own or just too varied among themselves.
    I think you're right. I think the people who would die for their values yet see it as pointless to die for your country simply don't have the same values as people who would die for their country. Just like one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, one man's values are another man's agenda of hate.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

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