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  1. #51
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I just admitted in the post you quoted that legitimate dissent did exist on the Left, just not within the Democratic Party. And I also pointed to the fact that legitimate dissent also existed on the Right.

    An example of this would be Doug Bandow's "The Conservative Case Against George W. Bush".
    "There were elements on the Left ...." You were trying to make it out to be less than what in reality it was. There was a massive amount of genuine dissent all over the Left for the last 8 years.

    It does exist in the party. Many politicians, on both the Right and Left, do genuinely believe in liberal or conservative principals, and will dissent against policies they genuinely disagree with.. but many politicians on both sides (more so on the Right, but that's another debate) do compromise principals for politics a lot more than we would both like.

  2. #52
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    (more so on the Right, but that's another debate)
    Why bother mentioning this part? You're saying you think "leftists" practice more honest dissent and less politically-expedient dissent than "those on the right", or am I misreading you? Is it because you think those values are more strongly built into "left-wing" ideology?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Why bother mentioning this part? You're saying you think "leftists" practice more honest dissent and less politically-expedient dissent than "those on the right", or am I misreading you? Is it because you think those values are more strongly built into "left-wing" ideology?
    I think it's mostly because he's a Leftist himself, ergo he believes more geniune dissent exists on the Left.

    Or in fairness, it's because dissent on the Left is given much more media attention than dissent on the Right. Most people are surprised to find out that dissent existed on the Right, at least before Ron Paul got attention in the primaries.

  4. #54
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Why bother mentioning this part? You're saying you think "leftists" practice more honest dissent and less politically-expedient dissent than "those on the right", or am I misreading you? Is it because you think those values are more strongly built into "left-wing" ideology?
    In that quote, I was talking about Republican politicians only. There is compromising of principals and corruption on both sides, but on average, more so with Republicans. They're more dirty.

  5. #55
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    That didn't answer anything, but I'll end it here so it doesn't get too off-topic. (not meant in a rude way, just thinking of the thread)
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #56
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I've met quite a few supposedly intelligent people over the years who have argued to me that it's wrong not to support your country- even if it's royally f-ing things up.

    I've been informed that the real meaning of patriotism is to stick by your country no matter what it does (kind of like "stand by your man" I guess), and that my criticism of certain decisions made by the government means that I'm not a patriotic citizen.

    Is criticizing your country a lack of patriotism or a form of it?

    Are there times when a citizen should STFU and support what thier country is doing even if they disagree?

    I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with what the leaders of their country are doing should hang their heads and tell everyone they're ashamed to be ____s. That's misplaced shame.

    It's okay to be a citizen of a democratic country who is grateful to live in a place where there's freedom of religion and speech, and yet be totally outspoken when it comes to disagreeing with the current leadership administration and their policies. A country isn't truly "free" unless its' citizens are free to express extreme disapproval with the way it's governed. Nobody who lives in a democracy should feel they have to STFU and support policies they disagree with. How on earth would any positive changes ever get put into place if everybody just threw up their hands and said "Oh well, I just trust our leaders" instead of writing to their congressmen and protesting.
    Plus, I would think any non-corrupt politicians would WANT to hear disapproval from their constituants so they can better serve them. Assuming they don't care is the same as assuming that all politicians are inherently corrupt, which isn't very "patriotic".

    I also see criticizing your country as being an act of patriotism in that it proves you care about what the leadership decides to do, rather than being apathetic.

    Sarah

  7. #57
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I also see criticizing your country as being an act of patriotism in that it proves you care about what the leadership decides to do, rather than being apathetic.

    Sarah
    That raises a few good points of discussion in itself...
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #58
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I will post one of my old posts here simply bacause I thtink that thread could use it.

    The following argument people always find highly controversial but I think that it must be said here.

    When you say something like "Does God really exists?" large number of people will give you the look and they will find strange that someone says that he is an Atheist. But somehow they will get over it.


    But if you start a debate "Do countries really exist?" you will encounter much bigger resistance.
    That is because they are connected to their state in many ways: economic , emotional , sense of attachment and .....

    So, can we say that all those countries really exist or they are just product of our imagination?


    I say that they are product of our imagination because of large number of reasons.
    If I become citizen of another country did I also become member of the nation, what if I just learn the language and spend my free time there as a tourist? Am I capable of making someone pregnant in that country?


    Now someone could say that they have a culture they have a language that they have (many other things)
    But culture changes as times go by ,so the culture you are actually “worshiping“ did not exist 50 years ago and it will not exist some 50 years from now.
    Same works for language.
    Then someone could say “Yes but we have permanent values, such as constitution “

    In that case I could say “Let’s be realistic. Do you honestly believe that someone will follow that constitution in the 8397. century?
    That constitution is not even 3 centuries old and it has trouble regulating many things that existed in the times when our grandparents were young. Plus the rate of progress is accelerating.
    Also, if it happens that one day sky opens up and Jesus comes down to Earth once again I guarantee you that this constitution will not mean anything to you in that case. “

    So can we say that overwhelming majority of world population is not thinking straight?

    I think we can, and that the person must have many properties that he/she does not starts to think in this direction.
    I mean this is accepted all over the world and no one is questioning the sanity behind entire thing.

    This is one very good example of how people are using their feeling in the wrong way and they claim that they can make the right choice.

  9. #59
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Good post Sarah!

    Yeah- I'm not fond of when people hang thier heads either- but emblazoning flags on everything you own is kind of over the top- it's not like we CHOSE what country we live in (most of us anyways!) Basically, if you're going to live in a democracy I'd consider it unpatriotic NOT to take an interest in what's going on and voice your opinion if you happen to dissent from it. Don't hang your head in shame- DO something!

    I don't really see the Dems playing the Un-American card Aj... it's just not characteristic or likely.
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #60
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    In that quote, I was talking about Republican politicians only. There is compromising of principals and corruption on both sides, but on average, more so with Republicans. They're more dirty.
    That is laughable. You clearly are not familiar with big-city Democratic politics.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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