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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't understand the bias against charisma.
    I have a heighten sense of skepticism against traits which tends to be effective at bypassing the walls of logic. If they don't back their style up with substance, they will stand out like a sore thumb.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Don't be mistaken. I'm happy we have our first black president, a president who seems to have inspired many, especially blacks and other minorities. We no longer have the excuse that society holds us down and keeps us from achieving great things.
    WOOHOO, RACISM'S GONE! All it took was electing Barack Obama! Why didn't we think of this earlier?

    Seriously? You think racism's gone? Poof?
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #13
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    WOOHOO, RACISM'S GONE! All it took was electing Barack Obama! Why didn't we think of this earlier?

    Seriously? You think racism's gone? Poof?
    Is racism gone? Of course not. Is racism much less of a handicap than culture in the present day? Yes. Are heavy-handed methods of compensating for racism now worth the price of their implementation? Probably not.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    WOOHOO, RACISM'S GONE! All it took was electing Barack Obama! Why didn't we think of this earlier?

    Seriously? You think racism's gone? Poof?
    His point was that could no longer be used as an all inclusive excuse. That people can't literally say the "white mans" bringing us down anymore. Some misguided people may have had that attitude and now have no reason to believe that to the extent that they did, "change" is more in their hands now. Basically it will force some to look in the mirror a little bit.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    His point was that could no longer be used as an all inclusive excuse. That people can't literally say the "white mans" bringing us down anymore. Some misguided people may have had that attitude and now have no reason to believe that to the extent that they did, "change" is more in their hands now. Basically it will force some to look in the mirror a little bit.
    YES, thank you.

  6. #16
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen
    Whether he abuses his charisma or not, I believe it keeps many people from objectively looking at the guy, in all the depth of his character he has exposed.
    Yeah, this is my issue with his charisma. I don't think a lot of people really cared so much about his policies, or could even tell you anything he stood for besides, "CHANGE!" Charisma is fine, as long as it doesn't blind people to what's underneath the charisma, or stop them from asking if there is anything underneath the charisma. I'm not against Obama, but it does bother me that so many of his supporters seem to have been won over strictly on a basis of personality.

  7. #17
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Me, being a strictly logical type who likes to look at facts as objectively as possible first, THEN use those facts to form my own opinions (which are by nature subjective)
    Are you sure you're not biased, somehow?

    When I see people claiming everywhere in public that "they are logical objective beings", well most of the time it's because they're not so sure about this.

    Most of your points are in fact heavily contaminated by ideology (= a value system), predictable and transparent, so can you really imagine you could ever think outside your "analytical grid"?

    Are you aware of your own limits?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #18
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Yeah, this is my issue with his charisma. I don't think a lot of people really cared so much about his policies, or could even tell you anything he stood for besides, "CHANGE!" Charisma is fine, as long as it doesn't blind people to what's underneath the charisma, or stop them from asking if there is anything underneath the charisma. I'm not against Obama, but it does bother me that so many of his supporters seem to have been won over strictly on a basis of personality.
    I think it was already mentioned before but I had similar discussions with my Dad. I would chalk it up somewhat to an NT mentality. I'm not necessarily devaluing that ability or even saying that it *may* not be a decent factor in voting for someone. I just think like you said a lot of people suspend a lot of their views and judgments almost instantly when it comes to charisma and speaking ability.

    I remember actually having a little discussion with a girl in one of my classes and she was mentioning that I seemed smart, being the type of person I am I had to ask her "really, why's that?" obviously not in those exact words. The funny thing was when I pushed her a little bit more her reasoning amounted to "you speak up in class and seem confident." Granted there may have been more thought underneath that but a lot of times people really will just see the surface and make a decisive judgment based on just that, the surface.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  9. #19
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Granted there may have been more thought underneath that but a lot of times people really will just see the surface and make a decisive judgment based on just that, the surface.
    But the fact is that Obama is anything but a shallow being (contrary to his predecessor ).

    He's very complex, and quite obviously very smart (someone who obtains his doctorate at Harvard with "magna cum laude" can't be completely dumb), and that's interesting.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Are you sure you're not biased, somehow?

    When I see people claiming everywhere in public that "they are logical objective beings", well most of the time it's because they're not so sure about this.

    Most of your points are in fact heavily contaminated by ideology (= a value system), predictable and transparent, so can you really imagine you could ever think outside your "analytical grid"?

    Are you aware of your own limits?
    Are you aware of the second part of my sentance? Read it again.

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