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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Just watch his speech. This is a down to earth guy with a unique history who was completely frustrated with the administration and finally decided to let it out. I found it very... I can't say it was unexpected, but I can say that it was dramatic.
    I watched the video. He seemed very TJ to me, early on (and probably an S due to his focus on concretes and desire to adhere to the powers and rules laid down that he had felt were supposed to already be active in the system).

    As a person, he reminded me very much of Vince Belugosi, the prosecutor who won the Charles Manson case and wrote "Helter Skelter."

    Yes, he wasn't "emotional" but he seemed to me to be angry in the way that TJ's get angry, by using very clear and empathic and sharp speech and criticism. He seemed very frustrated that the rules of the system (in his understanding) had been violated and that the empowerment he had been promised and the support he was supposed to receive had not been there; it seemed he felt left out to dry. (But he's expressing all of that frustration in clear and very critical impersonal language.)

    None of that says whether the large-scale claims are true or not, or whether his marginalization was worse than any other... but it does say that he went in with expectations of fairness and of being empowered, and for whatever reason, he felt that his hands were tied and he could not do the job for which he had been appointed, and that this was very wrong -- that he had been compromised by those who were supposed to be supporting him.

    He seemed "credible" to me, in that I would take his concerns seriously.

    --

    As far as the in vitro fertilization goes, I think this is an indictment of THAT system... not necessarily the stem-cell process. A very LARGE problem is that, in the desire to give birth to one's own kids, people are paying to have MANY embryos created in hopes that one of them takes... and the others are being discarded.

    If one truly believes that each of these embryos is a human life that morally needs to be preserved, well, how can one justify the "over-creation" of life simply for the purposes of reproducing and then placing these "human lives" in cold storage and thus limbo for decades to come? Isn't that also a violation of life, and using life for one's own gain, objectifying the embryo?

    If the embryo is not worth enough to allow to gestate (and thus will never be born anyway), why should it be kept in eternal limbo? That seems to me, morally, to be equivalent to murder... but just not as messy or inconvenient.

    In any case, I fear the day when we just view human embryos as "material to be spun and unspun and used as a commodity" ... the attitude that goes along with that does not bode well for a culture... but at the same time, the black-and-white extremes do not seem to do moral justice to the issue.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    He seemed "credible" to me, in that I would take his concerns seriously.
    You may want to read the NY Times as well, since it includes some of the background;

    In his testimony, Dr. Carmona said that at first he was so politically naive that he had little idea how inappropriate the administration’s actions were. He eventually consulted six previous surgeons general, Republican and Democratic, and all agreed, he said, that he faced more political interference than they had.

    That, and it highlights the influences he was put under. Reading those is why I believe this is a significant outburst - I do see his expectations dashed, but I also see someone who looked to find out if it was him that was out of place before moving forward. I have respect for those that do that before speaking out.

    As for how true it is... that is, of course, the catch. Regardless, this fits the growing pattern by a man who has an incredible track record of accomplishments. I see him pointing that out simply because character assasination is the norm politics... and I would even say, the MO of the current political environment.

  3. #23
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm not sure how I feel about government funding of the research. Aren't we paying through the nose for private medical research as it is?
    Not to mention subsidizing the pharmaceutical companies via corporate tax breaks....
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #24
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I watched the video. He seemed very TJ to me, early on (and probably an S due to his focus on concretes and desire to adhere to the powers and rules laid down that he had felt were supposed to already be active in the system).
    ...
    Yes, he wasn't "emotional" but he seemed to me to be angry in the way that TJ's get angry, by using very clear and empathic and sharp speech and criticism.
    Is this gratuitous typing because we're on an MBTI board? Not everything is a type issue. If we're going to enforce type-relatedness, we need to delete 70-80% of the posts on this board!



    Back on topic:

    A commentary this morning compared Koop/Reagan with Carmona/GWBush. Good point -- why did Carmona accept the restrictions? (Although, realistically, we're often constrained by those we work for.)

    Despite cries from conservatives for Koop's head, President Reagan backed him for seven years. Reagan seemed to understand that some areas should be off-limits to politics.
    ...
    On Tuesday, President Bush's former surgeon general, Richard Carmona, testified that the administration had muzzled him on a string of critical public health issues, from sex education to emergency contraception to stem cell research.
    ...
    It does not speak well of Carmona that he accepted the muzzling. A surgeon general who is loyal to science can educate people on the facts, countering political, religious and economic biases that can cloud those facts. That principled voice is needed, even when it grates on the president's ears.
    The editorial goes on to discuss Gonzales and the way he handled reported abuses of the US Patriot Act.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  5. #25
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru contrasted a couple of Carmona's aspersions with what has actually transpired coterminously to the surgeon general's appointment.

    I predict Carmona will talk his credibility away.

  6. #26
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Good point -- why did Carmona accept the restrictions? (Although, realistically, we're often constrained by those we work for.)
    I don't know his story, but I think a lot of it can be put down to his loyalty. When you are in that kind of situation and everyone acts like it is normal... well, it's not easy to speak out.

    What I think happened is that once he found out it was outside of the norms his predecessors, he took it very personally - that prompted his harsher language and more emotional content. Least, that's how I read the timeline.

    What I haven't seen is confirmation of any of the things he mentioned. If it is true that things like "Mentioning Bush x times in each report" are true, it would be nearly impossible not to invoke Godwin's law in comparing this to past propoganda. That's what I'm really interested in. Oh well, hopefully it'll come out one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    National Review's Ramesh Ponnuru contrasted a couple of Carmona's aspersions with what has actually transpired coterminously to the surgeon general's appointment.

    I predict Carmona will talk his credibility away.
    Perhaps. But that's really weak... Someone who doesn't like the position takes one of the weakest comments and says he doesn't believe it? I'm not sure about the muzzling comment, or what prompted it. Still, not bad for 190 words.

  7. #27
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Someone who doesn't like the position takes one of the weakest comments and says he doesn't believe it?
    The loosest wheel comes off the wagon first. But yes, we'll see.

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  9. #29
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I can't take this seriously when there's a fallacy in the first line.

    What makes people vote Republican? Why in particular do working class and rural Americans usually vote for pro-business Republicans when their economic interests would seem better served by Democratic policies?
    Neither party is doing what is in the best interest of rural and working class Americans.

    His thesis is basically that people vote Republican because they're afraid. How surprising.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #30
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I can't take this seriously when there's a fallacy in the first line.



    Neither party is doing what is in the best interest of rural and working class Americans.

    His thesis is basically that people vote Republican because they're afraid. How surprising.
    Ever read What's The Matter With Kansas?

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