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  1. #21
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Deposing brutal tyrants that are already despised by two-thirds of their people is not a crime-it might not usually be a particularly intelligent thing to do, but its not immoral. A government that so grievously violates the most basic rights of its own citizens has no right to exist.
    Every tyrant and conqueror comes claiming intentions of "peace and prosperity", while the only thing they actually ever do is fuck the shit out of the country beyond repair.

  2. #22
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Every tyrant and conqueror comes claiming intentions of "peace and prosperity", while the only thing they actually ever do is fuck the shit out of the country beyond repair.
    Yeah, Germany and Japan are really fucked up now.

    There are qualitative differences between the United States and would-be "tyrants and conquerors." As example A, compare the American occupations of Germany and Japan, with the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe-I'm sure you are familiar with the latter, at least. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was irresponsible, but not immoral-unless fucking up the occupation was a deliberate action by the United States, a (conspiracy) theory I find about as believable as the Loose Change movie.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm fully aware of the consequences of communism, our economy went back by a good century.

    Normally, I'd argue about using Germany and Japan as examples in this case. Since after all, they were the losers of the war which they themselves started, but I'll let this slide this time.

    Two wrongs and a right does not make it all right. Iraq isn't the only fuck up in your history where you "helped". Vietnam would probably be a good example everyone knows, let's not forget the extra shit that goes around Africa(Yes, I fully understand that the mass majority of the African problems at the moment come directly from the form of government there and most of the historical shit comes from the era of colonization, but you can't also claim that the help of the U.S. provided to support said governments didn't have a negative influence.) A lot of shit that is up with the countries south of Americas is also quite part to the "help" of the U.S., not all of it, fuck no. But you helped.
    The prime example would probably be Israel, good job at destabilizing an entire region for centuries.

    Deliberate? Depends on view points, if you believe that a lack of decisions made based completely on intelligence instead of intuition by posibly unqualified officers count as deliberete, then maybe. I would personally call them "fuck-ups".


    Anyway, I don't intend to say that the U.S.A. is the worlds main problem, but I'm just plain tired of hearing "America FUCK, YEAH. We fight for freedom, peace and democracy." I don't give a shit about how good your morals are, no country is going to help another one without expecting returns.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Of course the rest of the world cares about whom you have elected. The US financial crisis has spread to the whole world, for example because of the mistakes America has made a wealthy country like Iceland is now close to national bankruptcy, their currency having lost two thirds of its value over a very short period of time.

    So I get annoyed when Americans whine about foreigners voicing their opinion about the US election, it's our right and it's also not like we suddenly take away your right to make up your own mind. Also one thing that attracted me to Obama is that he is looking outward, beyond the US borders because he understands that there are another 6,4 billion people living in the world. In contrast Palin made comments about Obama like "This is not a man who sees America as you see America and as I see America.", accusing him of not being "American" enough and showing how inward-looking and restricted in her thinking she is.

  5. #25
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Yeah, Germany and Japan are really fucked up now.

    There are qualitative differences between the United States and would-be "tyrants and conquerors." As example A, compare the American occupations of Germany and Japan, with the Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe-I'm sure you are familiar with the latter, at least. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was irresponsible, but not immoral-unless fucking up the occupation was a deliberate action by the United States, a (conspiracy) theory I find about as believable as the Loose Change movie.
    I don't want to argue the Loose Change film, but I saw the smoke from a couple miles away that day and the first thing that popped through my head was not whether a few guys with box cutters took over planes...


    At any rate, germany is not fully recovered from world war 2. it got fucked up, real bad, but it was of course that was necessary. The soviet occupied section got doubly fucked, because as the iron curtain fell, the population started to flee west. As manufacturing facilities in the east were basically crap, integration has been an interesting process. Cities such as Dessous are in danger of becoming ghost towns. A couple times a year, still potentially live bombs are found, completely shutting down surrounding areas until disarmed. The german stereotype in america is basically just of bavaria, which is not representative of the entire coutnry.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    Of course the rest of the world cares about whom you have elected. The US financial crisis has spread to the whole world, for example because of the mistakes America has made a wealthy country like Iceland is now close to national bankruptcy, their currency having lost two thirds of its value over a very short period of time.
    Oh, how nice of you to throw all the blame on the US there. Unfortunately for you, that accusation is unfounded. Europeans were involved in creating this problem, from the start. Hell, the US has a financial system modeled after the British system. To act like Europe is a blameless victim is condescending, annoying, and incorrect.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #27
    Senior Member Darjur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Oh, how nice of you to throw all the blame on the US there. Unfortunately for you, that accusation is unfounded. Europeans were involved in creating this problem, from the start. Hell, the US has a financial system modeled after the British system. To act like Europe is a blameless victim is condescending, annoying, and incorrect.
    The only blameless victim in this is probably Cuba and N. Korea.

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darjur View Post
    Anyway, I don't intend to say that the U.S.A. is the worlds main problem, but I'm just plain tired of hearing "America FUCK, YEAH. We fight for freedom, peace and democracy." I don't give a shit about how good your morals are, no country is going to help another one without expecting returns.
    By the same token, I get tired of hearing denunciations based on faulty perceptions of our motivations and blatant anti-Americanism (I'm not accusing you of the latter, I'm just going by international polls). I was never angered by objections based on the predicted consequences of our actions, only by objections based on perceptions that the invasion was based on (immoral) material aggranizement rather than strategic objectives.

    By the way, the majority of the world-including the Iraqi generals-assumed that Iraq had WMD's, based on hard evidence uncovered during the nineties as well as continued and active Iraqi interference with UN inspections. We now know that was what Saddam wanted everybody to think. I blame the Bush administration for unnecessarily embarking on a major war without sufficient international support (to share costs and ownership), and for poor implementation/preparation of post-invasion policies, but not for assuming that Iraq had WMDs in the first place.

  9. #29
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    I don't want to argue the Loose Change film, but I saw the smoke from a couple miles away that day and the first thing that popped through my head was not whether a few guys with box cutters took over planes...
    The first thing that popped into my head as I watched ithe event on Live television was "WTF!". After the first plane crashed, I assumed it was some deranged pilot. After the second plane, terrorism WAS the first thing that popped into my mind. Based on what the hostages on Flight 93 told people on their cell-phones before the plane crashed, the terrorists utilized fake bombs as well as box-cutters.

  10. #30
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StoryOfMyLife View Post
    On a peaceful standpoint, having a President who is a.. 'war-hog' so to speak, isn't exactly something that another country's people should applaud..it'd be scary, wouldn't it? Especially given that we are such a powerful nation. A trigger-happy leader can be viewed as unstable and they've got a right to be paranoid about what other hellish catastrophes the good ol' US might unleash next... The fact that other countries are now proud of our nation's decision for our current President and have actually celebrated it speaks volumes about how they saw viewed this country during the last decade during the Bush administration.
    This pretty much sums it up... Besides, all the money that goes to the war effort could have been spent on something else, or not at all, since it's to a large extent borrowed money. These wars have greatly contributed to everything being fucked up economically.

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

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