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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #341
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Still, estrangement is much better than either persecution or ostracism, moderate or otherwise.
    I'd agree that in terms of severity, certainly, yes.

    Bottom line, I could have forgiven my great-great grandparents if their disapproval had resulted in familial estrangement, but I can't forgive them for disowning their child over that (or virtually any other) issue.
    I agree with that too.

    We can't expect everyone to accept us openly, we're just too different. What I despise is the disowning of someone over issues purely revolving on religious belief. I've been bitten hard myself, and it breaks my heart to see someone else have to go through it as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #342
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    Thomas Sowell : The Right To Win - Townhall.com
    Blacks and Mormons have been the main targets of the gay activists' anger. Seventy percent of blacks voted against gay marriage in California, so racial epithets were hurled at blacks in Los Angeles-- not in black neighborhoods, by the way.

    Blacks who just happened to be driving through Westwood, near UCLA, were accosted in their cars and, in addition to being denounced, were warned, "You better watch your back."

    Even blacks who were carrying signs in favor of gay marriage were denounced with racial epithets.

    In Michigan, an evangelical church service was invaded and disrupted by gay activists, who also set off a fire alarm, because evangelicals had dared to exercise their right to express their opinions at the polls.

    In Oakland, California, a mob gathered outside a Mormon temple in such numbers that officials shut down a nearby freeway exit for more than three hours.

    In their midst was a San Francisco Supervisor who said "The Mormon church has had to rely on our tolerance in the past, to be able to express their beliefs." He added, "This is a huge mistake for them. It looks like they've forgotten some lessons."

    Apparently Mormons don't have the same rights as other Americans, at least not if they don't vote the way gay activists want them to vote.

    There was another gay activist mob gathered outside a Mormon temple in Orange County, California.

    In the past, gay activists have disrupted Catholic services and their "gay pride" parades in San Francisco have crudely mocked nuns.

    While demanding tolerance from others, gay activists apparently feel no need to show any themselves.
    I don't wanna!

  3. #343
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    This is the same invective passed around by all sides commenting on the hypocrisy of the other.

    There are bigots and immature idiots in all large causes, especially ones where tempers are flaring.

    It would be more useful to see a "percentage" here... How many of these crude acts are occurring compared to the total number of people involved in any sort of protest? Percentages are good, whether we're talking Christians or gays or blacks or whatever else; it gives some context to the anecdotes.

    ps. I do like your tagline. At least Obama is aware he's being used as a vehicle for other people's visions and will probably not live up to their expectations.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This is the same invective passed around by all sides commenting on the hypocrisy of the other.

    There are bigots and immature idiots in all large causes, especially ones where tempers are flaring.

    It would be more useful to see a "percentage" here... How many of these crude acts are occurring compared to the total number of people involved in any sort of protest? Percentages are good, whether we're talking Christians or gays or blacks or whatever else; it gives some context to the anecdotes.
    Yeah, percentages would be grand. It's a good thing we're both intuitives and know how to look at the big picture without the "usefulness" of exact numbers that would be next to impossible to obtain. What's the big picture as I see it? I can't see anything but emotion and absolute trust in it's effectiveness as a tactic for change when I look at the arguments for gay marriage. If there was any level-headedness at all there wouldn't be mass protests of the FAIR democratic process, anti-gay blacklists, and numerous accounts of ideologically intolerant harassment.
    How the fuck they think any of this rage could do anything but hurt their side is beyond me.
    I don't wanna!

  5. #345
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Churches are non-profit organizations, and virtually all such organizations have agendas. If you strip Churches-but not secular groups-of their tax-exempt status for politicking, you are discriminating against religious organizations.
    religious institutions enjoy many administrative advantages because of their supposed politically neutral stance. Please list some examples of tax exempt politically motivated organisations and I'll show you a group that is about to be visited by the irs. Lobbyists pay taxes.

    This entire matter is silly and archaic. Let any 2 people of legal age form a legal union in city hall and call it marriage. Seriously, it doesnt affect anyone else.

    Teaching about the concept of gay marriage is not threatening anything. The numbers of straights getting divorces and/or raising children as a single parent are so staggering that it makes no sense to ring sexualiity into anything.

    But really, religion at all? As soon as humans overcome this addiction we will all be better off. Really, walking on water? The pastafarians have it right.

  6. #346
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    ...How the fuck they think any of this rage could do anything but hurt their side is beyond me.
    It's kind of hard for me to comment because i don't hang with gay people who would do stupid things like this. The gay people I talk to, know about, and the stuff I read usually has a different attitude, and when they describe any events they attend, they're not aware of this sort of crap happening... although realistically you have to imagine that any movement this large and volatile has a bunch of crap happening on the ground level.

    So the things you're describing, besides being as tactically stupid as you point out here, are things that I'm not aware of. I'm also thinking your news feed is probably different than mine, and I'm not sure that it's been triangulated for context or accuracy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #347
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    It really seems ludicrous to me that civil rights are subjected to the democratic process. Rights are rights. Why should marginalized people depend on the majority to grant them rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm also thinking your news feed is probably different than mine, and I'm not sure that it's been triangulated for context or accuracy.
    QFT. Seriously.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #348
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Here is another interesting angle on things:

    I heard Donna Rose, a fairly well-known transwoman, speak last night at Towson, and this topic came up in the audience Q&A.

    She was born as a male and was legally permitted (as a legal male) to marry only a female for most of her life.

    Although she eventually went through transition and the operation, and although she dated a guy or two in that time, her preference never shifted and she still is interested in women.

    As soon as her gender flag changed to M to F, although she's still the 'same person' and had been living as a woman before that flag got changed, she immediately became (legally) a lesbian and is forced now to marry a man and prohibited from marrying a woman if she so desires. (Meanwhile she provides a stable home for her young adult son, by herself.)

    This is the sort of thing that makes the whole "same-sex" marriage thing seem so arbitrary at times. Her preference for women never changed; it was simply the legal category she was placed in that changed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #349
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Here is another interesting angle on things:

    I heard Donna Rose, a fairly well-known transwoman, speak last night at Towson, and this topic came up in the audience Q&A.

    She was born as a male and was legally permitted (as a legal male) to marry only a female for most of her life.

    Although she eventually went through transition and the operation, and although she dated a guy or two in that time, her preference never shifted and she still is interested in women.

    As soon as her gender flag changed to M to F, although she's still the 'same person' and had been living as a woman before that flag got changed, she immediately became (legally) a lesbian and is forced now to marry a man and prohibited from marrying a woman if she so desires. (Meanwhile she provides a stable home for her young adult son, by herself.)

    This is the sort of thing that makes the whole "same-sex" marriage thing seem so arbitrary at times. Her preference for women never changed; it was simply the legal category she was placed in that changed.
    I don't understand why his "gender flag" was allowed to change. The operation is superficial. You don't get a uterus. You still have a Y chromosome. That doesn't make sense to me. I guess I don't understand the definition of gender, at all. I assumed it would be something concrete, verifiable by a third party.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't understand why his "gender flag" was allowed to change. The operation is superficial. You don't get a uterus. You still have a Y chromosome. That doesn't make sense to me. I guess I don't understand the definition of gender, at all. I assumed it would be something concrete, verifiable by a third party.
    This is another entire discussion and I find it more driven by people's underlying assumptions about what "validates" someone's gender, so I won't get into the bulk of it here.

    My personal belief is that people are too simplistic, for their own convenience; gender is much more complex in nature. (For example, there are people who might have one chromosome designation -- and remember that chromosomes are merely blueprints, not destiny -- and yet have had hormonal imbalances or whatever else that left them and everyone else assigning them to one gender, then later in life people find out genetically they were the other gender... yet everyone would still read them as the gender they knew them as and how they seemed to fit. Obviously the "chromosome" rule, even if technically they are XY, doesn't really serve justice or human need here.)

    But to drag this back into legal issues: Let's say someone is arrested and is physically and visibly and hormonally female, but is still legally male. They will be placed with male prisoners. For all appearances and intents and purposes, they are female, however, and run a high risk of being assaulted in that environment.

    Or let's say someone could be denied bathroom privileges despite living and looking perfectly female, because their gender flag is different; yet obviously if they went into the men's bathroom looking and living as female, that scenario would fare far worse. It would be far less disruptive to accede them female bathroom privileges.

    Even employment is denied if one's appearance/presentation is different than the gender flag. People claim not to be biased, but realistically that's not what can happen.

    Situations like that contribute to why the gender flag is changed in these situations if someone is reassigned. The only three states that I believe do not allow a birth certificate to be changed to reflect a reassigned gender are Ohio, Tennessee, and Idaho. The others allow for some sort of correction to driver's license and/or birth certificate, although the evidence needed for such approval still varies from state to state.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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