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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #331
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    In one of my classes the teacher passed at tax complaint forms to send into the government saying not to exempt the morman church as they were involved in the campaign and lobbied. she hopes that if enough people complain something will happen, and maybe right wingers will quit trying to mix church and state (haha like that's ever gonna happen)
    Are you in a private school or a public school? If you are in a public school, then that is very inappropriate.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #332
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I agree . That's exactly what I've been saying. Marriage shouldn't be recognized through government, it should be recognized through churches. When the gov needs to define and base policies on the relationship of two people, they should have a system of defining it as a civil union that does not have anything to do with churches and marriage. Unfortunately, that's a system overhaul that I doubt will ever happen, and I somehow doubt the gay community would be focused enough to even try going that direction. Honestly, I think most of them just hate religion, and want to beat it to the ground anyway; even if what they want can be achieved through other means. Thus, the war continues...
    I don't think that's the case for most gay people. Maybe more than the general population since they've been persecuted more directly and severely than most other groups. Many of them just want the unions that have been blessed in their churches to be recognized by the state, just like straight marriages. A large group of both gay and straight people from my church went to the protest in my area.

    I do agree with p_m that the solution to this is in relinquishing the institution of marriage entirely to religious institutions (and allowing each one to decide who they will and will not marry), and using a standard civil union for legal couplings that are open to all.
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  3. #333
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Are you in a private school or a public school? If you are in a public school, then that is very inappropriate.
    I'm in college. and it's private.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #334
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I'm in college. and it's private.
    Then that is fine. Private organizations can teach what they wish. I think churches should be able to campaign without losing tax-exempt status, too. It's supposed to be a free country.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #335
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then that is fine. Private organizations can teach what they wish. I think churches should be able to campaign without losing tax-exempt status, too. It's supposed to be a free country.
    I agree, they're just like any other non-profit organization in that respect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    First of all, I know many gay Christians who love God just as much as any evangelical. If you went to their churches, you honestly couldn't tell that it was a "gay" church from listening to the prayers and hearing people's hearts. They sang the same music; they searched the same scriptures; they submitted to God the same way an evangelical would; they prayed from the same heart.
    It will be interesting to see which older denominations eventually treat homosexual relationships as analogous to divorce (i.e. mostly a non-issue that used to be taken VERY seriously-my great-grandfather was disowned by his family for marrying my divorced great-grandmother), and which treat it as analogous to pre-marital sex (overt disapproval without obsessive condemnation-in other words, a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach in reality rather than rhetoric). Most likely, the denominations that allow female preacher's will follow the former example, and the others will adopt the latter approach.

  6. #336
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then that is fine. Private organizations can teach what they wish. I think churches should be able to campaign without losing tax-exempt status, too. It's supposed to be a free country.
    aren't you one of those people who want to seperate church and state? the fact is that they donated millions of dollars to a political campaign (which is a state matter). Churches are allowed to express their opinion, but not actively campaign. Just like I'm allowed to state my religious beliefs as long as I'm not infringing on others. I don't care if it was a side that I supported (it wasn't) the fact is churches should not be allowed to influence political beliefs. just as government should not be allowed to influence religious beliefs. That to me is the basis of separation of church and state.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #337
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    aren't you one of those people who want to seperate church and state? the fact is that they donated millions of dollars to a political campaign (which is a state matter). Churches are allowed to express their opinion, but not actively campaign. Just like I'm allowed to state my religious beliefs as long as I'm not infringing on others. I don't care if it was a side that I supported (it wasn't) the fact is churches should not be allowed to influence political beliefs. just as government should not be allowed to influence religious beliefs. That to me is the basis of separation of church and state.
    Churches are non-profit organizations, and virtually all such organizations have agendas. If you strip Churches-but not secular groups-of their tax-exempt status for politicking, you are discriminating against religious organizations.

  8. #338
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    all I'm going to say is separation of church and state. it's that simple, if it was truly separate in this country we wouldn't have some of the laws we have. I'm just sick and tired of seeing the line between church and state blur more and more.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  9. #339
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    It will be interesting to see which older denominations eventually treat homosexual relationships as analogous to divorce (i.e. mostly a non-issue that used to be taken VERY seriously-my great-grandfather was disowned by his family for marrying my divorced great-grandmother), and which treat it as analogous to pre-marital sex (overt disapproval without obsessive condemnation-in other words, a "hate the sin, love the sinner" approach in reality rather than rhetoric). Most likely, the denominations that allow female preacher's will follow the former example, and the others will adopt the latter approach.
    With the latter, I can guarantee gay people will not want to be involved.

    They don't want to go to church where they are not able to talk about their spouse and children without being looked at as a sinner -- regardless of whether someone is trying to be "loving" or not.

    (It's the difference between tolerance and actual acceptance.)

    And honestly, who would? As a straight person, would YOU enjoy going to a church where every time you talked about your spouse, you knew everyone around you was thinking, "Sinner!" and just merely trying to be tolerant of you? That they really didn't want to hear you say such things, and prayed that your marriage would be nulled and that you'd "come to see the light?" But meanwhile they could talk about their gay spouses and have everyone gush and be supportive and not fear rejection or disapproval?

    It doesn't work, not for community. You'd STILL feel excluded and not part of the community. You'll always be the "sinner" and "different" from others.

    So, in practice, I think you're either accepting or you're not. There is no "tolerant" in terms of community building, because of what community building entails; there is only "tolerant" with society at large, where the necessary personal investment is not so high.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #340
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So, in practice, I think you're either accepting or you're not. There is no "tolerant" in terms of community building, because of what community building entails; there is only "tolerant" with society at large, where the necessary personal investment is not so high.
    Oh, I agree-the issue in terms of which churches gay people might actually want to join is a no-brainer. A major difference is that relationships involving pre-marital sex are, by implication, temporary, while the vast majority of gay people (and remarried divorced people) view their sexuality (and romantic relationships) as a permanent and central component of their lives. Its the difference between temporary and permanent estrangement (and the latter easily results in ever-increasing resentment). Still, estrangement is much better than either persecution or ostracism, moderate or otherwise. Bottom line, I could have forgiven my great-great grandparents if their disapproval had resulted in familial estrangement, but I can't forgive them for disowning their child over that (or virtually any other) issue-as an agnostic, I'm not burdened with the belief that forgiveness is always a virtue.

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