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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Someone still has to notify the authorities, who sign off on it. You don't hire some guy off the street, do the ceremony, and all of the sudden you're filing your taxes jointly and on each other's insurance policies.
    Okay. Let's get even more specific.

    If you want to get married legally, get married legally.
    If you want the blessing of your church, then get the blessing of your church.

    But I think it's a very LOUSY idea to have the pastor act as a legal liaison because it contributes to confusion about who has jurisdiction where and whose marriage it is.

    Now:

    If that distinction is important to people, we should be able to come up with some basic way to implement it. So is that really the issue? (You seem to be responding to implementation questions.)

    If the distinction is not important, we're going to have LOTS and LOTS of arguments culturally about this until it's figured out somehow and the distinction gets made.

    Gatsby, you're right; I'm still arguing on a broad conceptual level so I wasn't delving too far into the flaws of using statistics. I also think it's a great idea to suggest a look at how things have played out elsewhere, even if cultural differences might have to be factored into things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  2. #22
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    The bill was about gay marriage and teaching of gay marriage in schools (instilling more of their values in our children regardless of what parents want to teach their kids, and we've already seen the damage they can do). I supported the prop, because I believe it will protect the already weakening institution of marriage which directly ties to family values and maintaining the integrity of family structure. I have nothing against gay people, but there is a reason why humanity as a whole is geared toward a certain family structure.

    You can go ahead and barrate me now...

  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Gatsby, you're right; I'm still arguing on a broad conceptual level so I wasn't delving too far into the flaws of using statistics. I also think it's a great idea to suggest a look at how things have played out elsewhere, even if cultural differences might have to be factored into things.
    I just wanted to cut off anyone doing what I would do if I had an invested interest in the outcome. It's not terribly easy to support marriages on those grounds.

    And it works in both directions. Right now there is a higher barrier of entry to getting a gay marriage. This will certainly change the dynamics after the barriers are removed/reduced, for better or worse. And either way, right now we have a monolithic system. Almost certainly the three (or more?) variations on marriage will not be equal. Is it fair to ban a marriage because it is satistically more likely to end in divorce? Can I ban young marriages, then?

    I agree with your view. Free association is the only way to go. But the moment you bring in social harm (Which via statistics is the implication), the rationalisation wheels start turning. It's... a dangerous area. The moment you start to regress on harmful factors to marriage, it's not going to be this division that gets the boot... it's going to be some very personal factors.

  4. #24
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Concerning Prop 8 and similar measures: as far as I am concerned, the biggest mess is the intertwining between the legal and religious concepts.

    Marriage is a religious institution and should be handled exclusively by the church.

    Civil unions should be handled by the state, just as any other contract (specifically, a life long contract between two consenting adults)

  5. #25
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Get the state out of marriage, seriously.
    No kidding.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I've heard that many of the non-white people who registered to vote for Obama out in CA actually voted for Prop 8, since they still had more traditional values. Socially, they wanted Obama; religiously, they were more conservative...
    There was actually an ad sent around ( I got one) with a picture of Obama and a quote saying he was against same sex marriage. The most simplistic ads on TV as well saying that it would require same-sex marriage to be taught in the very early grades. Very emotional ploys and tone of voice used.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The bill was about gay marriage and teaching of gay marriage in schools (instilling more of their values in our children regardless of what parents want to teach their kids, and we've already seen the damage they can do). I supported the prop, because I believe it will protect the already weakening institution of marriage which directly ties to family values and maintaining the integrity of family structure. I have nothing against gay people, but there is a reason why humanity as a whole is geared toward a certain family structure.

    You can go ahead and barrate me now...
    That claim was made based on Massachusetts' state law, not California.

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    That claim was made based on Massachusetts' state law, not California.
    And just to ensure that I remain alienated from every concievable side in this debate, I object to that aspect of the Massachusetts law (assuming you have corrctly portrayed it); its like having teachers give their opinions concerning the morality of atheism or evangelical Christianity to impressionable children against the wishes of their parents.

  9. #29
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    well, i dunno why massachusett gays pushed for teaching of same sex marriages to children.

    if they didn't no one would have even written up this bill.

    it should have honestly said:

    "Marriage is legally between a man/woman and a woman/man

    but traditional marriage should still be taught to schoolchildren when the subject is pertinent"

    seems the pushback was a little too much in prop 8, but honestly its that group of gays in massachusetts who pushed for same sex marriage education among children who should have had a better sensibility. Especially if they believe its genetic.

    gays still have full california consitutional legal rights of marriage through civil unions though.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    You can go ahead and barrate me now...
    Okie Dokie

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    The bill was about gay marriage and teaching of gay marriage in schools
    No. Gay marriage had not been being taught to children while it was legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    (instilling more of their values in our children regardless of what parents want to teach their kids, and we've already seen the damage they can do).
    Oh, because being exposed to reality is bad? And what "damage" do you speak of? This is besides the point however because it had not been nor will ever be taught in schools, way to suck down that propaganda, letting the artificial fear being thrown at you influence your decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    supported the prop, because I believe it will protect the already weakening institution of marriage which directly ties to family values and maintaining the integrity of family structure.
    Church =/= State

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I have nothing against gay people, but there is a reason why humanity as a whole is geared toward a certain family structure.
    Yes you do have something against gay people, I hate it how people say this bullshit. If you support something that takes away rights from a certain group of people, you have something against them, it's very simple.

    "there is a reason why humanity as a whole is geared toward a certain family structure"

    What is that supposed to mean? Couples being same sex has 0 influence over their ability to raise a family, the only difference is that your people isolate their children.

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