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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Interesting. Who is "us"?

    Also, you have yet to present a non subjective based 'rationalization' for why you feel homosexuality is wrong. Yes, I said feel on purpose. Logically, there's no basis to deny gays basic fundamental rights.
    We've gone over this 1,000 and 1 times. There is no discrimination against gays, and when it comes to gay marriage, it's because the institution itself was intended for straight people. I've said what gay people need to do if they want equal rights without attacking the institution itself (which would be as equally unjust as heteros breaking down a decidedly gay organization/institution). But you don't want to hear it, so why bother...

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    We've gone over this 1,000 and 1 times. There is no discrimination against gays, and when it comes to gay marriage, it's because the institution itself was intended for straight people. I've said what gay people need to do if they want equal rights without attacking the institution itself (which would be as equally unjust as heteros breaking down a decidedly gay organization/institution). But you don't want to hear it, so why bother...
    Replace everything you say with women and vote:


    We've gone over this 1,000 and 1 times. There is no discrimination against women, and when it comes to women voting, it's because the institution itself was intended for men. I've said what women need to do if they want equal rights without attacking the institution itself (which would be as equally unjust as men breaking down a decidedly woman's organization/institution). But you don't want to hear it, so why bother...


    I've read this thread several times, and what I see is that gays do not have the same ability to get the legal rights that is otherwise assumed for straights. Therefore this is not merely an academic excersize and the fundamental issue is in the institution needing to be rewritten (the laws, or the method of application, as it applies now.) In that, it is not all that different than the modified quote above.

    I have not seen you address this, but if you want to point me to your post that does, I'll take back this comment.

  3. #253
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    It occurs to me that one could think of homosexuals getting married in the same terms as men having hysterectomies.

    "Go on and knock yourselves out."

    Whatever you wind up doing, it won't quite be what you're calling it.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Replace everything you say with women and vote:


    We've gone over this 1,000 and 1 times. There is no discrimination against women, and when it comes to women voting, it's because the institution itself was intended for men. I've said what women need to do if they want equal rights without attacking the institution itself (which would be as equally unjust as men breaking down a decidedly woman's organization/institution). But you don't want to hear it, so why bother...


    I've read this thread several times, and what I see is that gays do not have the same ability to get the legal rights that is otherwise assumed for straights. Therefore this is not merely an academic excersize and the fundamental issue is in the institution needing to be rewritten (the laws, or the method of application, as it applies now.) In that, it is not all that different than the modified quote above.

    I have not seen you address this, but if you want to point me to your post that does, I'll take back this comment.
    I said the following, in addition to the opinion that marriage shouldn't be involved with the government.

    My advice; work on changing the rights held by civil unions, and leave the marriage part alone, unless as Eileen said, you go to some gay friendly church and get a non legally binding blessing there. Then I think everyone could agree and be happy.
    The rights they claim not to have are rights that are granted to MARRIAGE, and only apply to couple's rights not individual rights, with marriage being defined as between a man and a woman as it always has been, and always will be. Claiming that you lack rights on that basis is like me saying I lack rights because I'm legally considered a dependent despite the fact that I'm an adult, and can't get some school grants because of it. I seriously think it's about that frivolous. I agree that the rights gays have as couples should be obtainable somehow though, and I suggest they do it through civil unions and leave MARRIAGE alone because nobody is going to win in that battle.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    There is no discrimination against gays, and when it comes to gay marriage, it's because the institution itself was intended for straight people.
    That's like saying my schools were intended for whites only. If blacks want to learn, they can build their own.

    You are depriving people of rights based on irrelevant traits. That's discrimination.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Whatever you wind up doing, it won't quite be what you're calling it.
    That would seem to depend on the definition, wouldn't it? If two people promise to spend their life together, be exclusive and so forth, it seems pretty similar. Even down to raising a family.

    I find it difficult to see the difference between my marriage and a gay marriage in any meaningful terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I said the following, in addition to the opinion that marriage shouldn't be involved with the government.
    Your quote doesn't deal with the legal double standard, however. And I realise you think it shouldn't be a government thing, but that is neither the case or a solution... afterall, this isn't "government" the enemy, this is "law" the friend - as in the stuff that sets up the structure so that people optimize their rights. If one group has unequal rights before it, then it should be remedied.
    Last edited by ptgatsby; 11-07-2008 at 03:11 PM. Reason: edit: grouped posts together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I said the following, in addition to the opinion that marriage shouldn't be involved with the government.
    But straight marriages are given benefits, rightfully or not. Therefore, the same must be extended to gay ones.

    I don't buy the claim that pro-prop8 people are not anti-gay. It's just that their position is logically indefensible, so they try to express their bias in a more discrete way.

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That would seem to depend on the definition, wouldn't it? If two people promise to spend their life together, be exclusive and so forth, it seems pretty similar. Even down to raising a family.
    Yes, it is pretty similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I find it difficult to see the difference between my marriage and a gay marriage in any meaningful terms.
    That's because you're not particularly invested in the traditional definition.

  9. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But straight marriages are given benefits, rightfully or not. Therefore, the same must be extended to gay ones.
    No. If marriage is between a man and a woman (and it is defined as such), then marriage doesn't exist between same sex couples by definition. AGAIN, work on changing the civil union laws if you want some of the same benefits. I doubt anyone will stand in your way on that. Christ. It's not a MARRIAGE.

    Maybe I should fight to receive tax credits because it's not fair that I am denied the same benefits that married couples have. I have a girlfriend, so we should have the same benefits, right?

    *WRONG*

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    No. If marriage is between a man and a woman (and it is defined as such), then marriage doesn't exist between same sex couples by definition. AGAIN, work on changing the civil union laws if you want some of the same benefits. I doubt anyone will stand in your way on that. Christ. It's not a MARRIAGE.

    Maybe I should fight to receive tax credits because it's not fair that I am denied the same benefits that married couples have. I have a girlfriend, so we should have the same benefits, right?

    *WRONG*
    “Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.” “The greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about” “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”

    - Martin Luther King Jr.

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