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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #221
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    "He said voters may have started out "thinking that as long as it doesn't affect me, do what you want."'


    Yeah, it's called AMERICA, people. Get with the centuries-old program. That's how it's supposed to be.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That was the point I made to the person I was talking to on Tuesday. The church supported suppression of women as well as the black population, for a long time, as God's will, until finally the rules changes.

    Their point was simply that, yes, looked at that way, it was discrimination. But it was a moral issue, homosexuals are wrong, and so it's not discrimination, it's doing what God wants.

    It's really hard to fight against deep-seated ideas like that tied into personal morality. They don't see it as a negative to be ballasted, it's a positive to be fought for, and to change their opinion demands a large shift in their overall belief structure.

    Large changes in beliefs, especially as a person gets older, as less and less likely; and they're also devastating to the person when they occur, just like a fault-line that has been building pressure year by year shifting suddenly. The longer the fault was stuck there, the more power needed to make it finally let go... and the more devastation and clean-up that is demanded inside when it finally goes.
    I understand that. The church's ideals have given us many positives (humanism, enlightenment, renaissance) but it also has a lot to answer for in terms of stubborn, repressive thick-headedness.

    Current moral views cannot and should not dictate what is the law. And the law should exist to protect everyone equally, right down to the individual. I think Rawls' "theory of justice" should be taught in schools as a requirement. At least to get people to stop thinking about how personal morality, and more about how they would feel in someone else's shoes.

  3. #223
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    I understand that. The church's ideals have given us many positives (humanism, enlightenment, renaissance) but it also has a lot to answer for in terms of stubborn, repressive thick-headedness.

    Current moral views cannot and should not dictate what is the law. And the law should exist to protect everyone equally, right down to the individual. I think Rawls' "theory of justice" should be taught in schools as a requirement. At least to get people to stop thinking about how personal morality, and more about how they would feel in someone else's shoes.

    I actually disagree with Rawls on many things, but I would have no problem with Rawls being taught in school as AN IDEA, not the truth. Children old enough to comprehend should be taught Rawls, Nozick, Marx, Rousseau, Locke, Mill, Hobbes, et al. One of my favorite things about my university was that you had to take Intellectual Heritage 1 and 2 to graduate. Besides the Bible and the Koran, most of my classmates had never been exposed to the basic texts of Western thought. It was great.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I actually disagree with Rawls on many things, but I would have no problem with Rawls being taught in school as AN IDEA, not the truth. Children old enough to comprehend should be taught Rawls, Nozick, Marx, Rousseau, Locke, Mill, Hobbes, et al. One of my favorite things about my university was that you had to take Intellectual Heritage 1 and 2 to graduate. Besides the Bible and the Koran, most of my classmates had never been exposed to the basic texts of Western thought. It was great.
    *blushes* granted, I was never that interested in Rousseau when I studied him in his historical context at 15. But I'd agree with you that children should be taught about the different schools of thought, from the social contractualists to the utilitarianists to natural law etc. It seems at least as important as literature. We didn't have such graduation requirements at our university. Consequently I don't think many of my fellow graduates have the background to analyse social/ethical issues out of a personal context.

  5. #225
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    He basically just said that Proposition 8 owes its success to the manipulative spread of prejudice by those who supported it.

    Bravo. Masterful indeed.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    He basically just said that Proposition 8 owes its success to the manipulative spread of prejudice by those who supported it.

    Bravo. Masterful indeed.
    i mean, i dunno. i know why u say that, because obviously there is that segment of the population. but people who just want to marry like before this prop existed, should look at the yes votes more carefully. unless they are such idealogues, that its not possible to.

    Parents rip school over gay storybook - The Boston Globe

    I mean, if i was gay, and i wanted to marry someone, im not sure why the above prevents a pragmatic approach. nothing on the "no" side addressed the above.

  7. #227
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    and thats all gays had to say for Prop 8 to be defeated.
    Except for the fact that doing so is comparable to someone accused of being insane simply saying that they're sane. That's exactly what a crazy person would say!
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Except for the fact that doing so is comparable to someone accused of being insane simply saying that they're sane. That's exactly what a crazy person would say!
    well i understand ur point. but if u look at other propositions california passed or did not pass. they were all over the map. there is more of a pragmatism involved, rather than this deep idealogical division that is paramount in some other areas of the country.

    CALIFORNIA MAJORITY BACKS GAY MARRIAGE / Field Poll director calls results a milestone

    By 51-42 percent, registered voters said they believed same-sex marriage should be legal in California. Only 28 percent favored gay marriage in 1977, when the Field Poll first asked that question, said Mark DiCamillo, the poll's director.
    This was the sentiment of people exactly 6 months ago, before all these "teaching children" ads came about. This is the 5-10% i've been talking about for about 10000 posts now.

  9. #229
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    the national media is pretty stupid analyzing this.

    they are so used to ohio and florida being a "battleground" state, that they are only familiar with the politics of those state well. they don't really understand califas.

    not that i really care. its just annoying when the national media tries to speak on something they know nothing about.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Can we agree then to also give gay people the same rights as straight people?
    They do. The marriage law discriminates against behavior, not people.
    I don't wanna!

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