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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #211
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    and thats all gays had to say for Prop 8 to be defeated.
    That sounds very naive to me, in regards to the religious assumptions driving much of the opposition.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    From the article:



    Some people have to "accept" the fact that interracial marriages occur despite being against them personally. And last I checked, a church wasn't required to marry any particular heterosexual couple, either. It's not like I could have waltzed into an Eastern Orthodox church with my husband-to-be and demanded that they marry us.
    Do they have to accept it? They can vote against it.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    the vast majority of californian's don't care about that.





    and thats all gays had to say for Prop 8 to be defeated.

    I can't say I feel sorry for strategists for any cause who don't learn from their mistakes. I feel sorry for their followers though.
    Apparently they DID say that. Well, someone did. State superintendent? The video was posted earlier in the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That sounds very naive to me, in regards to the religious assumptions driving much of the opposition.
    I was talking about the 5-10% that would have swayed.

    A lot of people are aware of the mainstream discussion about it in general. A lot don't really care about the moral issue of being gay in general. People in California have their own thoughts on several stratified levels. I lived in California for 31 years. 10 in Northern California, and 21 in Southern California. Never lived in Central, but I drove through there about 100 times. lolz I know my state pretty well.

    "It was masterful of the campaign to raise the implications of what it could mean in terms of the school system," said Republican political consultant Wayne Johnson. He said voters may have started out "thinking that as long as it doesn't affect me, do what you want" but the supporters shifted the focus to children.
    Backers focused Prop. 8 battle beyond marriage - Los Angeles Times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So it's slippery slope argument mixed with a "frog in the pot" argument. Since homosexuality is evil, if we allow people to pursue it even if they don't bother us personally, we slowly create a morally unsafe world for our children because they won't learn to recognize the danger.
    About the slippery slope... I'm taking a quote from INTJf.

    Quote Originally Posted by stasis View Post
    It isn't valid because it depends upon an essential commonality in character or class between homosexuality and bestiality or pedophilia that isn't otherwise established by the argument. This qualitative association is merely presupposed. The rational bankruptcy of such a presupposition is perhaps best illustrated by applying it to heterosexual marriage: Allow two heterosexuals to become bound together in marriage? What's next, social contract between people and necrotized ducks?!

    Why would that be next?

    The fact that bestiality and pedophilia seem to arise in clockwork manner whenever homosexuality is discussed politically suggests that the (unsurprising) gist of the opposition in the United States is "homosexuality is perverted," making this particular application of the argument akin to "if we start allowing things that I don't like, what's to stop more stuff that I don't like from being allowed?" That's an aesthetic argument, not an ethical or moral one. Another reproach, then, would be to put the aesthetic argument into an ethical context: how far does the forcible imposition of distaste justly go? In what context should putting up yellow wallpaper become a crime? And that'd depend upon who is putting up the wallpaper and where. Since the basic question of homosexuality is applied to two consenting adults, the question becomes one of ascertaining what rights adults have.

    It's difficult to justify the curtailing of civil rights for fashion's sake, gaudy trends or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    About the slippery slope... I'm taking a quote from INTJf.
    I agree with the idea that the slippery slope occurs because homosexuality is already viewed as moral perversion and thus is equated with beastiality and the like.

    (And don't get me started on how often I heard that style of argument used growing up and even into adulthood -- just drove me crazy.)

    To me, it's not much different than all the fearmongering that tends to occur in subcultures with isolationist/xenophobic tendencies. Everything becomes a slipper slope, as part of defending the borders and keeping out the unknown instead of reviewing realistic progressions of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I was talking about the 5-10% that would have swayed...People in California have their own thoughts on several stratified levels. I lived in California for 31 years. 10 in Northern California, and 21 in Southern California. Never lived in Central, but I drove through there about 100 times. lolz I know my state pretty well.
    Oh, okay, thank you.

    I know I don't have a handle on California culture, I only have had deep dealings with the sorts of people who would pour money into the state in support of Prop 8. So thank you for the info.

    A lot of people are aware of the mainstream discussion about it in general. A lot don't really care about the moral issue of being gay in general.
    I noticed a large percentage of new non-caucasian voters going for Obama voted FOR Prop 8. With these new voters who supported Obama, do you believe that was just due to misunderstanding Prop 8, or misunderstanding what would happen if same-sex marriage was allowed? Or was there something else going on?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I agree with the idea that the slippery slope occurs because homosexuality is already viewed as moral perversion and thus is equated with beastiality and the like.
    It's only viewed as moral perversion by some. The difference between homosexuality and pedophilia/bestiality is that the latter are unable to properly consent. It's really not of the same category.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    It's only viewed as moral perversion by some. The difference between homosexuality any other form of human sexual behavior and pedophilia/bestiality is that the latter are unable to properly consent. It's really not of the same category.
    Corrected it for you.

    As for this "OMG, they're going to TEACH THE CHILDREN ABOUT TEH IMMORAL GAYS" crap, I'd imagine that exactly the same argument could've been made of slavery and integration of black/white people back in the 1960s.

    I find this whole thing very stomach-turning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Corrected it for you. As for this "OMG, they're going to TEACH THE CHILDREN ABOUT TEH IMMORAL GAYS" crap, I'd imagine that exactly the same argument could've been made of slavery and integration of black/white people back in the 1960s.
    That was the point I made to the person I was talking to on Tuesday. The church supported suppression of women as well as the black population, for a long time, as God's will, until finally the rules changes.

    Their point was simply that, yes, looked at that way, it was discrimination. But it was a moral issue, homosexuals are wrong, and so it's not discrimination, it's doing what God wants.

    It's really hard to fight against deep-seated ideas like that tied into personal morality. They don't see it as a negative to be ballasted, it's a positive to be fought for, and to change their opinion demands a large shift in their overall belief structure.

    Large changes in beliefs, especially as a person gets older, as less and less likely; and they're also devastating to the person when they occur, just like a fault-line that has been building pressure year by year shifting suddenly. The longer the fault was stuck there, the more power needed to make it finally let go... and the more devastation and clean-up that is demanded inside when it finally goes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Oh, okay, thank you.

    I know I don't have a handle on California culture, I only have had deep dealings with the sorts of people who would pour money into the state in support of Prop 8. So thank you for the info.
    yeah, the more time passes, the more I realize how far ahead all these steps were.



    I noticed a large percentage of new non-caucasian voters going for Obama voted FOR Prop 8. With these new voters who supported Obama, do you believe that was just due to misunderstanding Prop 8, or misunderstanding what would happen if same-sex marriage was allowed? Or was there something else going on?
    colored??? lol

    do u mean african american? or latinos? chinese americans? filipino americans?

    I mean, I really can't emphasize any more that this is how simple it was:

    He said voters may have started out "thinking that as long as it doesn't affect me, do what you want" but the supporters shifted the focus to children.
    Backers focused Prop. 8 battle beyond marriage - Los Angeles Times

    Its pretty sad that there are already married couples who don't know if they will legally be married in the future...

    I think there is a decent chance the courts will overturn it, and yes voters can be placated if gays come out and say they don't want to teach it to children in schools. i mean its a real concern from people who before supported gay marriage. listening to what u guys say, it must be pretty bad wherever u guys are at. last night driving through hollywood, i saw hundreds of protestors last night, they were all cheering peacefully and a lot of cars were honking for them.

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