User Tag List

First 11192021222331 Last

Results 201 to 210 of 368

Thread: Prop 8

  1. #201
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The irony is that most of the stuff that is supposed to be pro-gay that DOES pass actually is bad for America, like hate crime laws that punish thought.
    The way this debate has been going, you just know someone is going to accuse you of supporting violence against gays now.

  2. #202
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, racist merely have to tolerate interracial marriages, not be forced by the courts to allow their kids to be indoctrinated into accepting them . Debates like this make me appreciate that the ACLU exist (despite their double standards and extremism).
    How is "tolerate" different from "accept that they occur"? What I'm saying is that the fact that interracial marriages are now allowed has not led to a big flap in schools about indoctrination. Children learning that something happens isn't the same thing as being indoctrinated. Is it?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  3. #203
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Posts
    1,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    From the article:
    Some people have to "accept" the fact that interracial marriages occur despite being against them personally. And last I checked, a church wasn't required to marry any particular heterosexual couple, either. It's not like I could have waltzed into an Eastern Orthodox church with my husband-to-be and demanded that they marry us.
    I was never taught anything about marriage when i was in elementary school.

    U.S. court upholds same-sex teaching to children | U.S. | Reuters

    Elementary school kids don't really think about race, sexual orientation, etc... if anything , its the ADULTS that need the education.

    Gavin Newson, and whoever pushed this through, may have had good intentions, but did it with very stupid strategic results being pretty bold and stupid. Much like the Bush "Shock and Awe" strategy. Once again, failure.

  4. #204
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    How is "tolerate" different from "accept that they occur"? What I'm saying is that the fact that interracial marriages are now allowed has not led to a big flap in schools about indoctrination. Children learning that something happens isn't the same thing as being indoctrinated. Is it?
    Again, the implication has been that the court decision goes beyond telling kids, "gay marriage exist in this state. Its controversial. Talk to your parents to find out more". If that's all there is to it, then its not indoctrination...though it still deserves mention that COURTS HAVE NO LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE CURRICULIM(sp).

  5. #205
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INxJ
    Posts
    3,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Concerns about indoctrination are not limited to it "turning" children gay; some people think homosexual sex is immoral, just like some people think having sex outside of marriage is immoral. To phrase this debate another way, would you want a teacher to have effectively unrestricted opportunities to convince your child (subtly or otherwise) that homosexuality is wrong?
    There's no empirical evidence proving that homosexuality is 'wrong'. People's subjective beliefs should not be used in law.

    There's no need to teach sexuality or marriage in school.

  6. #206
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm not in favor of teachers inserting their morality into the classroom in any way, but I also fail to see how this would follow from simply allowing gays to marry.
    As someone told me Tuesday night, if children are allowed to see gay marriage as they go about their lives, they might end up thinking it's "okay" and "normal" and then not have a problem with it [as God says they're supposed to].

    That's as verbatim as I can recall.

    So it's slippery slope argument mixed with a "frog in the pot" argument. Since homosexuality is evil, if we allow people to pursue it even if they don't bother us personally, we slowly create a morally unsafe world for our children because they won't learn to recognize the danger.


    Just like now that they're not able to marry, doesn't mean teachers are able to indoctrinate children into homophobia. If it goes both ways, it goes both ways. (No double entendre intended.)
    Good point.

    There's problems where one person's "indoctrination" is another person's just "expressing the sides." No good way to reconcile it, because of the extremity of the stance against homosexuality. The same goes for birth control; if you teach birth control in school in as "neutral" a way as possible, the conservative church still clearly vocalizes that you're "encouraging premarital sex."

    So if you oppress information about families with same-sex parents, you're basically "eradicating them" from the American fabric and essentially putting a social stigma on it; if you discuss them as if they're normal, then someone's upset about how you're trying to normalize a life situation they see as immoral.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #207
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    There's no empirical evidence proving that homosexuality is 'wrong'. People's subjective beliefs should not be used in law.
    Give me strength, oh oblivious and possibly non-existent God...

    I'm not debating whether or not homosexuality is moral, I'm debating about whether or not empowering teachers to indoctrinate impressionable minds in accordance with their own subjective belief system is a good idea, and for that matter whether or not it infringes on parental rights.

  8. #208
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I'm not debating whether or not homosexuality is moral, I'm debating about whether or not empowering teachers to indoctrinate impressionable minds in accordance with their own subjective belief system is a good idea, and for that matter whether or not it infringes on parental rights.
    I agree with that... and I also suggest that there's no good answer because authentic needs are conflicting. Someone's going to be disappointed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #209
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Posts
    1,709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    There's no empirical evidence proving that homosexuality is 'wrong'.
    the vast majority of californian's don't care about that.



    There's no need to teach sexuality or marriage in school.
    and thats all gays had to say for Prop 8 to be defeated.

    I can't say I feel sorry for strategists for any cause who don't learn from their mistakes. I feel sorry for their followers though.

  10. #210
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INxJ
    Posts
    3,917

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Give me strength, oh oblivious and possibly non-existent God...

    I'm not debating whether or not homosexuality is moral, I'm debating about whether or not empowering teachers to indoctrinate impressionable minds in accordance with their own subjective belief system is a good idea, and for that matter whether or not it infringes on parental rights.
    It's not a teacher's place to give information either way, about heterosexuals or homosexuals.

Similar Threads

  1. Why you should vote YES on PROP 19
    By Edgar in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 48
    Last Post: 11-14-2010, 09:12 AM
  2. Media Spin (Prop 8 example)
    By Totenkindly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-12-2010, 03:53 PM
  3. Props to whomever solves my puzzles first
    By ygolo in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-09-2009, 07:29 PM
  4. Protest Prop 8 - This Weekend
    By anii in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 11-15-2008, 09:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO