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Thread: Prop 8

  1. #171
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    This is where I begin to believe that the state should not be presiding over marriage, gay or straight. I would have no problem with some wonky church letting gays get married. That's their business, and the church's business. On that level the only people who would recognize the union would be that church and maybe any other churches that also do gay marriages. However, we come to a clusterfuck when we consider how the government has their fingers pressed into the institution of marriage. That is the point where it gets to complicated for me to argue for or against it, because there is so much that depends on what the government considers marriage, and marriage rights afforded by the government, and blah blah blah. Marriage and the state should've never been let near eachother in the first place.
    Right, but having the government involved in marriage has its benefits as well. And marriage (which I don't think anyone would view as a negative institution in any way) flourishing has undeniably good implications for society as a whole. So what I'm saying is, promote it for some, promote it for all. Gays may not share the same religious views as those who hold antipathy towards gays, but we're all members of the same country, as a whole, the country has a vested interest in the success or failure of gay relationships.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Oh, I thought that infringing on the rights of minorities was called "Unfair", my bad.



    Yea they do.

    Civil unions don't grant the right of a spouse to make decisions for their partner if their partner is otherwise unable to do so (in the hospital, stuff like that)

    They also do not grant the Right of Survivorship, which makes it so a person's spouse (legally married to him/her) receives all the person's possessions when they die. This means that for civil unions, a family member can claim the right to the possessions, and/or the possessions can be taxed by the gov't.
    Then why dont you guys just work on changing those laws so that civil unions will have those rights?!

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Then why dont you guys just work on changing those laws so that civil unions will have those rights?!
    Because I'm not in charge of anything and too young to vote.

  4. #174
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Then why dont you guys just work on changing those laws so that civil unions will have those rights?!
    BECAUSE WE NEED YOUR HELP TO DO SO.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Well as long as its consistent, I see no problem. But if they teach one, they should definitely teach both.
    sure since teaching neither was already the status quo.

    that massachussets lawsuit seriously screwed things up. i don't want their issues to come over here. everything was fine before that court case and prop 8.

  6. #176
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    My advice; work on changing the rights held by civil unions, and leave the marriage part alone, unless as Eileen said, you go to some gay friendly church and get a non legally binding blessing there. Then I think everyone could agree and be happy.

  7. #177
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    My advice; work on changing the rights held by civil unions, and leave the marriage part alone, unless as Eileen said, you go to some gay friendly church and get a non legally binding blessing there. Then I think everyone could agree and be happy.
    Well, straights should only be able to get "civil unions" under the law, too. Marriage should have nothing to do with government.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  8. #178
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    this is what happens when massachussets wants to become a bellweather state

    its not California's fault.

    =)

  9. #179
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Respectively: Yes, I do. And, no, I don't.
    um, you just said that you disagree with the Brown decision; you should really read posts more carefully. Anyway, the Brown decision mandated equal and non-discriminary public accomodations; it did not, for instance, mandate that children be indoctrinated to believe certain things.

  10. #180
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    For the heterocentric ignoramuses who think that gay people have the same "rights":

    More than 1,138 federal rights, protections and responsibilities are denied to gay and lesbian couples. They include, but are not limited to:
    The right to have visitation rights when his/her partner falls ill
    The right to make decisions on a partnerís behalf in a medical emergency
    The right to take up to 12 weeks of leave from work to care for a seriously ill partner or parent of a partner
    The right to share a room in a nursing home
    Protections for families of crime victims, including the right to notice and information, to testify at sentencing and parole hearings, and to receive mental health services
    Family health and auto insurance policies
    After death of partner, the right to take a forced share of the estate, staying in the family home through transition protections, receiving allowances from the estate to meet current expenses, and being allowed to retain personal effects, personal property of sentimental value, and the right to drive the family car.
    After the death of partner, the right to automatic inheritance rights, spousal preference for administering the estate, and taking care of a loved oneís remains
    The right to ensure that his or her partnerís desire to make an anatomical gift is fulfilled if opposed by partnerís next of kin
    The right to bring claims of wrongful death or loss of consortium when a loved oneís death results from wrongdoings
    The right of the partner of a police officer/firefighter who was killed on the job to have access to line of duty benefits
    The right to automatically receive wages due partner at the time of his or her death
    The right to receive dependency benefits from the workerís compensation system or accidental death benefits from the retirement system if partner is injured or killed
    The right for a person who is retiring to provide their pension to their surviving partner
    The right to enter into surrogacy arrangements
    The right to petition for partner to immigrate
    The right to assume parenting rights and responsibilities when children are brought into a family through birth, adoption, surrogacy, or other means
    etc.

    This is why I don't support civil unions (from a purely legalistic pov):

    Marriage confers certain legal rights as given by the state. It is not a means of obtaining mass recognition for a relationship because there are certain people who will always disapprove of any relationship, regardless of whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.

    Therefore this is a legal and rights issue and is not relevant to popular opinion. The constitution serves as a means of protecting the rights of minorities from the tyranny of the majority. The constitution is interpreted by the Supreme Court, hence its decision should be binding. This issue of "minority rights" is also why people often equate gay rights with racial rights and basic individual rights. Personally, I don't see the difference, too.

    While religions may object to recognition of the marriage, this has nothing to do with the state because there is (theoretically at least) a separation of church and state.

    "State marriages" should be available for all as a fundamental right. Most people here agree with this. (For those who don't agree, you should read John Rawls' legal and political philosophy to remove your head from your butt.)

    These are normally called "civil unions", but I oppose this.

    The reasons being that "civil unions", being "separate and equal" from the institution of marriage, often is "separate" but seldom is "equal".

    The ruling in the Brown VS Board of Education case concurs with me that "separate but equal" is discriminatory.

    All people should be equal in the eyes of the law, and have the same rights and protections under the law.

    The only way for "civil unions" to provide real protection for same-sex couples is to equate it with "traditional" marriage.

    Therefore the only way for true equality is for same sex marriage to be legal.

    I am unequivocally pro gay marriage. Q.E.D.

    Sad about Prop. 8.

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